Stream.Transcripts/twitch/2569533222 (2025-09-18) - H.../2569533222 (2025-09-18) - H...


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								so so


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								you you


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								This is so crazy.


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								Like goosebumps.


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								This is so crazy.


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								I feel so nervous.


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								Like what in the world, man?


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								the the the


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								I have no responsibility for the current pandemic.


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								Stop lying!


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								Oh, there was no doubt we were living through a revolution.


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								I certainly experienced it as such, internalized it in that way.


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								When the paper by Avery, McLeod and McCarty came along, I didn't use the phraseology, but my exclamations were equivalent, saying, this is the dawn of molecular genetics.


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								For the first time, we could


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								have a biological assay for the genetic activity of an external molecule.


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								So that publication, next to Francis Ryan, with the molding effects on my career, was talked about quite extensively.


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								around the department at Columbia.


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								It turns out we had a couple of people who were important liaisons.


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								Alfred Murski, who has been remarked on as having been an inappropriate critic.


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								of Avery McLeod and McCarty.


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								I don't think it was inappropriate, but it was certainly a severe critic.


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								Chet was also the greatest herald of the story, so we would hear about what was going on at the Rockefeller Institute on the other side of town, as if we had been at the same institution.


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								But also Harriet Taylor was a graduate student working with L.C.


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								Dunn.


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								I had become interested in it as well.


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								And she in fact went to do post-doctoral work in Avery's laboratory shortly after that time.


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								So we had very close information linkages to the research that was going on there.


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								We were very well informed about it.


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								We reacted to it.


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								There was a lot of


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								critical dialectic, but it was not something that could be ignored.


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								It was the most exciting thing that happened in many, many decades, and was precisely because it was so important, that is, the identification of DNA as genetic material, that I empathize with the view that it should be subjected to the most critical examination.


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								It was too important an issue to just accept casually.


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								So as long as the debate was alive, that was where the scientific method operates.


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								I'm damned for what I do.


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								My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight.


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								They've set me on a path from which there's no escape.


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								I yearned to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost.


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								And by the time I looked down, there was no longer any ground beneath my feet.


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								What is my, what is my sacrifice?


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								I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them.


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								I burned my decency for someone else's future.


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								I burned my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see.


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								Now the ego that started this fight will never have a


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								a mirror, or an audience, or the light of gratitude.


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								So what do I sacrifice?


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								Everything!


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								I think truth is good for kids.


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								We're so busy lying, we don't even recognize the truth no more in this society.


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								We want everybody to feel good.


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								That's not the way life is.


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								Yeah.


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								Good morning, everybody.


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								Hello, welcome to the show.


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								This is GigaOM Biological, a high-resistance, low-noise information brief brought to you by a biologist.


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								Coming to you live from my garage in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA, planet Earth.


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								Just in case this broadcast is getting out past the solar system, I want you to know where we're coming from and what's happening.


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								Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining me.


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								We have a second part of our initial offering of the History of Pseudobiology 432.


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								This is point two.


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								I am adopting the stardate version of episode numbering that was originally established by my colleague and


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								sort of friend on the interwebs, Mr. Mark Kulak of Housatonic Live of Boston.


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								He often calls his episodes some number with a variant number or a version number afterward, I guess maybe from, I don't know, it just, it makes sense.


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								It's like Dewey Decimals or something like that.


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								Anyway, this is going to start to be a regular course offering, if you will, a sort of survey course


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								where I will just kind of expose myself as an armchair biologist to the open air of the internet and explore these myths and try to reason my way back to reality after a long career in academia and a long career as a


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								kind of pseudo-anti-vaxxer following the lead of all these national security state actors.


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								I just had no idea that they were all on the same stage, on the same script.


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								I thought I was bouncing between independent actors that were all trying to, some in their own way, fight for the history or the future of America for their children.


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								And it turns out that all of these people


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								have been recruited and scripted and agreed to play along to the extent to which, yeah, we are just really scratching the surface of what's really going on here.


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								I'm just, I don't know, I'm humbled by the fact that so many of these people


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								were in one way or another employed to meddle with me and my family.


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								Someday I think all of them will be apologizing in one way or another.


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								Let me just slide over here for a second and see if I can say hello to everybody.


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								Good morning.


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								My name is Jonathan Cooley.


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								I come to you live out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania I am a former academic biologist.


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								I like to say recovering a cat a magician I'm aware that at least Andrew Kaufman may have stolen the recovering Academy academic


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								joke, but I say a catamagician, because a lot of what happens in academic science is essentially a kind of magic, because probabilities are used to test null hypotheses, and this sort of strategy, if it is not vigorously validated, and the models that underlie these questions are not vigorously validated regularly, then this kind of


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								hamster wheeling can spin out of control very easily.


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								And I'm afraid we're about 30 plus years into a really bad hamster wheel spinning in terms of molecular biology.


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								And especially with regard to what we might be able to learn on the smaller scale in bacteria and archaea and in yeast, as opposed to what those molecular mechanisms might have anything to do with what's going on in any particular cell in our body, nevermind all the cells or whatever.


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								And so that kind of gross generalization has been going on for a long time with respect to reductionist biology.


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								And I'm afraid that this has led to a lot of basically bankrupt ideas, which have become presuppositions to the current investigations.


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								And I think if you want to seek the truth, together with me and other people who watch this show, I think this is always the premise that we're starting with, because before


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								let's say 2019 or 2020, I also assumed that what was going on in academic biology was largely an honest pursuit, an objective pursuit, and one that was so open and sort of self- what is the right word?


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								Self-censoring and self-correcting that we have inevitably gone in the right direction as a group.


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								And I'm afraid that because there have been what I would essentially call scripted actors in place and acting in concert for many decades,


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								that a lot of the prevailing ideas that have become assumptions with regard to biology are essentially wrong.


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								And it comes down to really starting to try and get down to the history of biology in the last 30 or 40 years where we can really understand what they were able to prove, solve, and what blocks are building on what other blocks, and what blocks are just kind of hanging in air.


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								Because I think what we're going to find is that there was a transition that occurred somewhere after the Manhattan Project and somewhere before the Human Genome Project where a bunch of assumptions just kind of like, yeah, I guess this is it.


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								And a lot of the early thinkers that came out of physics, went into biology, still looking for fundamental laws of the universe, kind of got stuck, kind of gave up, kind of were disappointed.


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								And then there were a few people who passed through that sieve without that kind of disappointment, without that kind of like, you know,


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								sort of losing the wind in your sails, thinking you were going to answer the big questions.


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								And they got through it with Nobel Prizes.


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								And I'm starting to really see that that


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								part of American history where all this thought came together in a few people and in a few labs or in a few sort of ecosystems of thought.


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								You can see how corruption of that field by a few influential thinkers and then just a few good men being convinced not really to object to it, to stay in their lane, if you will,


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								30 years later we could be where we are with a whole field which is essentially based on a series of assumptions that were never approved or never proved, excuse me, have never been thoroughly tested or verified and we're just going along with the model


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								using the dated techniques as verification or gold standards still, even though we have, of course, decades of finer technologies that we could apply to the same questions to verify that our basic cartoon models of these phenomenon are real.


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								But if we did that, all of this illusion of the Baltimore scheme would disappear.


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								So again, I'm just trying to give you a good introduction to why I want to talk about David Baltimore, listen to David Baltimore, and listen to his take on the history.


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								It is because social media has made it even hard for us to see.


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								Sorry, let me just switch over here now, now that I'm talking.


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								Oh, I see.


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								Sorry, I didn't set that up.


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								My bad!


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								Hopefully we're not missing too many frames here on this little restore.


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								I apologize for that.


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								be better I think that should be better I think no because that's not in focus goodness sakes where is my production crew if I just had you know somebody setting up my cameras or picking my ISO settings or you know whatever


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								That would have been done already.


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								I think that looks all right.


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								Yeah.


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								Okay.


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								So I'm really trying to advocate for the idea that repeating this is not bad.


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								It's actually good.


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								It's actually the teaching moment that can bring us together with our children.


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								If we can show them that this last five years was something that was collectively used against us, a biological phenomenon, an increase in all cause mortality was misconstrued as something else.


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								And the national security state had been preparing itself internally, preparing the academics and academic biology internally with conferences and papers and journals and papers about these phenomena.


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								And because that whole genre of scientists is


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								is very intimately controlled by funding that is, of course, scrutinized under a national security basis, they have essentially created a pocket of science which is almost


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								from the biological perspective, from the academic perspective, non-negotiable because the textbooks are already in their fifth edition with two giant volumes.


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								The book on prions is like the size of a veterinary manual.


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								It's a huge field with an enormous amount of sort of


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								precedence seeming to exist in the academic literature, and that precedence is still supported by a number of people that claim to be those investigators that have established those precedents.


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								And so with regard to virology, and particularly RNA virology, one of these people that is most important for this is David Baltimore, who recently died about a week ago.


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								David Baltimore was awarded the Nobel Prize for finding reverse transcriptase, which is the enzyme that supposedly explains the more or less the viral cycle or whatever that HIV, the virus underlying AIDS, supposedly undergoes with respect to the immune system.


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								And so the idea with


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								with David Baltimore is this idea that viruses are these packages of genetic material that also often contain the enzymes necessary to copy them when they get to where they're going.


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								And so the whole story of virology


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								of coronavirus biology, for example, if we're trying to seek the truth about the pandemic, what they tell us in their papers is that coronavirus is a very long, single-stranded RNA in a lipid particle with some proteins on the outside.


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								And we don't have to worry about what proteins on the outside, except for the spike protein.


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								Everything else doesn't matter.


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								The M protein, the E protein, these are silly.


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								And we don't have to worry about the end protein, which is supposedly the protein that this long molecule of RNA is curled around.


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								Now that RNA molecule is dangerous all by itself in that little tiny protein tortellini.


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								And the reason why is because once it gets inside your cell, by some magic means, that RNA is able to hijack your protein manufacturing machinery and instruct it to make the proteins necessary.


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								And it's a lot of proteins.


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								It's not just an enzyme.


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								It's a whole, apparently a whole complex


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								and it can cause the expression of that complex and then that complex knows somehow how to then copy


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								the foreign RNA specifically and not all the other RNA that's in that cell but just that RNA and it's supposed to copy it and then that RNA uses the machinery of our cells to then package itself in identical viral particles to the one that came in because apparently in that long RNA are the instructions on how to make


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								the E-protein, the M-protein, the spike protein, and how to put them all together.


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								And it just goes, and then there it is.


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								You have the RNA inside, and voila, the cycle repeats.


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								And so this mythology is based on an extraordinary number of assumptions, most of which are based on


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								the word of or the publication of a few papers which, you know, if they're just graphs, if they're just, you know, graphs with error bars,


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								then the possibility of faking a whole field is very, very high.


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								Now I'm not saying that I know that that's possible, I just want you to understand that academia really rests on a few papers and every field has this potential where if somebody was really just lame


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								and decided to tell a story about some behavior in rats that they were regularly able to create with some stimulation here, stimulation there, it could go on for a very long time before anybody would be able to invest the time and the experimental energy necessary to check the claim.


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								And the farther back you go in history, like let's say you go back in history far enough to where not everybody has ever flown on a jet plane before or where going to California meant basically packing up and moving and not really knowing when you'd come back, then you can imagine a scenario where faking a field starts to become very, very interesting.


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								If, for example, you know, after the greatest minds in physics decided to go into biology, they went into the simplest system, bacteria, they found this phenomenon called phages, and then kind of everything just went, just kind of disappeared.


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								I mean, what happened?


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								What happened to all those people?


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								Why did that whole field just kind of,


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								go away, and then all these other people stepped in front of them with animal viruses.


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								I think you're going to find that this question is really, these kinds of questions, trying to formulate this question or this list of questions in the best way is going to be a very, very well-spent time and energy.


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								So that's my plan.


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								And I think that that will help people to kind of get to the stage where they can start to question this narrative usefully.


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								Remember that this narrative is a national security theater enabled by social media.


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								Never before 2020 did people use social media with the level of assumption that they use it with right now.


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								These scripted conversations using scripted actors that all trust the script allows social media to convince people that there are movements like the conservative movement or the health freedom movement when in fact there are not those movements except for the theater that is social media.


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								And so pandemic biology and RNA virology are the real concrete myths within biology 101 that we need to get rid of.


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								The Human Genome Project is another one of these gross exaggerations that we need our children to be able to see through so that they can, you know, hear the exaggerations that are going on on television with regard to fidelity, with certainty, and with the insult to your sovereignty that is this movement of


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								I don't know if it should be called transhumanism or not, but it's just, it's this arrogance that we can somehow, from a molecular perspective, take over the evolution of the species.


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								And that's really just, that's really terrible idea.


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								And so it is murder and lies that they used in the pandemic, but it wasn't that much murder because there was already an anticipated rise in all cause mortality.


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								All they had to do is agree to do dumb things about it in response to it, to take advantage of it, and then to agree to tell everybody on TV and on social media.


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								in a coordinated chorus of liars that there was a novel virus that killed millions of people, but millions more were saved from it by ivermectin or by transfection, but we're just not gonna call it that.


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								We'll just say vaccines and confuse people with that idea and that methodology for another 10 or 15 years until all of their children believe this pseudobiology.


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								And so if we teach the history of it, then our kids will be able to see it.


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								And more importantly, our kids will be able to find their way to a new biology, one that essentially starts with the assumption that there is an irreducible complexity at the heart of our existence that we're never going to be able to scratch, but we want to see if we can clear off of as much of it as possible so that we can kind of understand a little bit more about our collective interdependence.


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								which is, I think, the most important thing to understand here.


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								If this is the, you know, the garden and we're supposed to be the gardeners, then we better understand our interdependence with the garden a lot better than we do.


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								And so that's why I am focusing on trying to get the words right.


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								I don't know if this one's on.


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								No, that one's not on either.


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								I think getting the words right are really important.


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								I think that's why documenting with real books and real citations the fact that intramuscular injection of any combination of substances with the intent of augmenting the immune system is a dumb idea from the late 1800s.


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								And I like to document that a lot and I am working on that in a real sense.


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								Transfection of healthy humans was a crime because transfection is an old technology that I've used on the academic bench.


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								It's one of the reasons why I was fired from the University of Pittsburgh by calling a


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								calling it what it is.


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								RNA cannot pandemic.


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								That's a statement that should tap into the very root of what some of your friends understand as biology.


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								And as long as they're arguing that evolution is a real thing, because DNA, then the whole idea of RNA pandemicing, the RNA going endemic,


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								The RNA traveling through all the population of white-tailed deer and zoo animals in North America should start to make less sense to them with regard to what they thought was possible.


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								And autism is a meaningless word by design.


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								It's something that you can say to anybody.


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								and it'll be a little bit like a cognitive slap in the face if they think they have autism or some minor form of it.


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								But with regard to regular people who haven't really thought about it very much but think that Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								29:53.611 --> 29:58.772

								is some kind of clown, I think that that's one of the ways that you might suggest that


								29:59.492 --> 30:16.496

								RFK might be on a script because him and his friends, you know, like Brian Hooker who worked for the government for 16 years trying to genetically modify plants to grow medicine, not that dissimilar to something that maybe a guy who worked for the Human Genome Project might be interested in doing.


								30:16.536 --> 30:22.177

								Yeah, the thing is, all of the people behind RFK are part of this illusion where


								30:22.777 --> 30:25.222

								autism has become a meaningless word by design.


								30:25.262 --> 30:29.289

								And in fact, Brian Hooker didn't use the word autism in 2013.


								30:29.871 --> 30:34.700

								So at some point in time, this pseudo biology was militarily


								30:36.866 --> 31:03.961

								inserted into our society's thoughts and inserted into our society's media and into the undercurrents of discussions on social media so that the anti-vax movement in America would already exist and be under control when the population pyramid bump arrived and it was time to declare the pandemic.


								31:07.492 --> 31:17.457

								And that's the same reason why your gut feeling is right, you know, that America is a two-party theater and both sides have steak dinners together and laugh about their performances.


								31:17.497 --> 31:25.582

								That's why Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton were so good in that debate, because they were really good friends.


								31:25.722 --> 31:30.865

								It's not that they're both really cool, it's that they were both really good friends performing for us.


								31:31.977 --> 31:35.939

								And so this two-party theater is run by the national security state.


								31:35.999 --> 31:41.301

								It makes America a very stable country for the controlling powers behind it.


								31:42.562 --> 31:45.063

								And the question is, since when and for what purpose?


								31:45.183 --> 31:46.544

								I really think that at least


								31:47.383 --> 32:05.337

								from the brass tacks and from the, I don't know what the right terms are, but from the nuts and bolts of it, what really are making the wheels turn, it's the Human Genome Project and it's DOD, DOE classified part of the iceberg.


								32:05.777 --> 32:17.046

								The tip of the iceberg that you can see of the Human Genome Project is Francis Collins and his guitar over and over again, announcing a new milestone with regard to what they're able to do or how cheap it is.


								32:18.769 --> 32:30.684

								And the rest of the iceberg is the idea that for about 30 years already, they've known that they're going to have to figure out a way to be able to collect the genomic data of everyone.


								32:31.610 --> 32:37.555

								and collect it in a very reliable and accurate way, which to a certain extent they have made progress on.


								32:37.615 --> 32:38.876

								It has to also be cheap.


								32:39.277 --> 32:49.725

								They also have to have the data infrastructure necessary to store that data in a uniform sort of format so that it can be fed into a machine learning algorithm.


								32:49.745 --> 32:53.849

								And over the last 10 or 15 years, they have been modifying and


								32:58.491 --> 33:12.940

								And the word is optimizing the various forms of these machine algorithms in the form of chatbots, in the form of chess algorithms, in the form of Go algorithms.


								33:13.020 --> 33:27.089

								And they're learning a lot about how this data needs to be fed in, how the data should be represented, different strategies for representing the data that allow easier access and easier comparison across segments or yada, yada, yada.


								33:27.529 --> 33:33.875

								And all of these things are designed to solve problems that incrementally lead to one of the greatest problems of all time.


								33:33.915 --> 33:42.042

								And that is the inheritance between generations of vertebrates and how it happens.


								33:44.244 --> 33:47.387

								And it is surprisingly difficult to study that


								33:48.342 --> 33:59.011

								It is surprisingly difficult to make progress because it is surprisingly difficult to do some of the basic experiments that you can do with bacteria and bacteriophages, for example.


								34:00.352 --> 34:16.425

								And so it's not that all these people that went into bacteria and bacteriophages answered a bunch of questions there, cleared it up, figured out how it works and bacteria, and then moved on to animal viruses and their homologue, you know, in nature.


								34:16.465 --> 34:17.706

								That's not what happened at all.


								34:20.017 --> 34:23.239

								And that, from an intellectual perspective, is very curious to me.


								34:23.299 --> 34:31.703

								I think the reason why is because we are witnessing the concept that the Human Genome Project is the Human Genome Project.


								34:31.803 --> 34:33.724

								All the other biology is really interesting.


								34:34.585 --> 34:46.411

								And it's really neat to know, but any biology that you learn from inbred mice is almost only applicable to that inbred mouse strain, never mind applicable across all vertebrates.


								34:46.551 --> 34:50.474

								I mean, these mechanisms have all been long exhausted.


								34:51.414 --> 35:08.400

								These hypotheses have all been long exhausted and now it is the irreducibly complex diversity of molecular strategies and physiological strategies and structural strategies that exist on this, you know, genetic background that is the Earth.


								35:10.612 --> 35:22.556

								And we have been sort of conditioned to believe that the mechanism of evolution acts on the individual and its ability to contribute to the next generation.


								35:22.616 --> 35:27.737

								And that mechanism suffices to explain our existence.


								35:28.257 --> 35:29.498

								That's the premise here.


								35:29.558 --> 35:31.658

								That's the premise here.


								35:31.759 --> 35:32.999

								That's the premise here.


								35:35.137 --> 35:37.859

								Mud puddle, lightning bolt, that's about it, right?


								35:37.959 --> 35:43.922

								As long as the sun and the earth stay about the same distance apart and there's some seasons, apparently this is what you get.


								35:46.143 --> 35:51.686

								And that's just, from an assumption perspective, it's spectacular.


								35:52.647 --> 35:54.368

								But that's also what this guy believed.


								35:55.694 --> 36:06.161

								Teilhard de Chardin, a Catholic priest, he also believed, basically, that DNA provoked evolution, and that meant God must have created us with evolution.


								36:06.201 --> 36:11.925

								He's showing us evolution, and therefore God is giving us permission to take control of it.


								36:13.667 --> 36:18.790

								It's almost like God bestowed upon us this responsibility.


								36:18.810 --> 36:22.673

								That's the argument that I get out of this book.


								36:24.315 --> 36:38.866

								And it jives very well with the arguments that are made by these early physicists and chemists that thought that the discovery of DNA meant that in about 10 years, all the knobs of creation would be at our fingertips.


								36:38.906 --> 36:39.967

								And that's just not true.


								36:41.408 --> 36:51.015

								But the Human Genome Project is the long-term national security impetus to approach that goal with intention.


								36:52.765 --> 37:01.591

								And I believe that 9-11, I believe that the coronavirus pandemic, these were all various


								37:04.088 --> 37:23.961

								stumbling blocks, incremental crisis situations that have allowed them to nudge our society closer to a society where the sovereignty of its citizens can be negated in the betterment of the whole, in the interest of the whole, and that would be public health.


								37:25.714 --> 37:44.042

								And I think Mark Kulak is doing an incredible job of sort of outlining how in 9-11, it was probably going to be a biological attack that would allow the never before precedence to be set where they would just immunize the entire military with an investigational vaccine, like a DNA vaccine.


								37:44.802 --> 37:55.027

								And that didn't happen for some reason, but we did get this, I don't know, buildings exploding and terrorism for 10 years and a lot of expenditure in the Middle East.


								37:58.820 --> 38:01.241

								And now here we are back again at the same time.


								38:01.521 --> 38:11.866

								And it's interesting because Alex Jones, the day after 9-11, according to the findings and archiving of Mark Kulak, suddenly decided that it wasn't the US government, but it was Israel.


								38:11.946 --> 38:17.569

								Just kind of very similar to how the day after Charlie Kirk gets shot, Alex Jones knows it's Israel.


								38:17.989 --> 38:19.429

								It's very, very interesting.


								38:21.671 --> 38:26.373

								And I think it can be, let's say, stress reducing.


								38:27.455 --> 38:40.598

								to understand it from the perspective of it being a 30 or 40 or 50 year scientific endeavor that has horribly missed its projected goals.


								38:41.399 --> 38:47.380

								That in 1960, none of these people would have said that in 50 years, right?


								38:47.840 --> 38:50.301

								In 50 years, we're gonna be nowhere.


								38:52.221 --> 38:54.262

								None of them would have been able to say that.


								38:56.280 --> 39:07.352

								None of them would have been able to say that despite adding all this academic infrastructure and all this funding and all these core facilities, we haven't gotten that much farther.


								39:10.536 --> 39:11.777

								And that's the reality of it.


								39:13.908 --> 39:17.290

								That's why the Human Genome Project is still at the source of this.


								39:17.330 --> 39:23.614

								That's the reason why Kevin McKernan was involved in the people behind Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								39:23.674 --> 39:27.657

								That's why Robert Malone was involved with the people behind Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								39:27.697 --> 39:29.178

								That's why Meryl Nass is there.


								39:29.718 --> 39:31.319

								That's why Veera Sharma is there.


								39:31.379 --> 39:34.802

								That's why Brian Hooker, 16-year employee of the U.S.


								39:34.882 --> 39:36.263

								Government Department of Energy,


								39:37.904 --> 39:44.409

								or wherever he worked where he was transforming plants to make medicines, that guy behind Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								39:44.489 --> 39:46.591

								is not just some dad with autism.


								39:47.631 --> 39:48.372

								Stop lying!


								39:48.772 --> 39:50.674

								Yes, Brian, stop lying.


								39:51.735 --> 39:55.818

								For the sake of your son and his future in America, stop lying.


								39:57.432 --> 40:19.643

								Pauly Tommy was an actor in the UK, swaying votes for autism awareness, trying to get jobs for kids with autism back in the early 2000s, and then moved to America, got a big ranch in Austin, Texas, you know, the same town where Joe Rogan and all these other performing clowns podcast from.


								40:22.461 --> 40:23.641

								It's just remarkable.


								40:24.602 --> 40:42.669

								We as a country have been bamboozled by our own countrymen who have sold us out because I guess they underestimate us as a country or they see the vast majority of Americans as being the deplorables that they were called by Hillary Clinton.


								40:43.609 --> 40:45.410

								And so there's not a lot worth saving.


								40:46.570 --> 40:48.051

								But I don't agree with any of that.


								40:49.662 --> 40:54.733

								I think America's children are definitely worth saving, and more importantly, they're not spoiled yet.


								40:57.018 --> 40:59.443

								We could still turn them against this.


								41:00.919 --> 41:12.929

								we could still come up with a plan together with our children, with a new vision of the future that doesn't involve their enslavement, doesn't involve their digitization.


								41:12.949 --> 41:29.422

								It doesn't involve their being locked in a, essentially an experimental cage that can adequately monitor them so that enough data can be uniformly collected across all experimental animals during their entire lifetime from birth until death.


								41:37.423 --> 41:45.269

								I guess I'm wasting too much time on this, but all the people that got into Clearview, all the people that got into Clearview, ladies and gentlemen, are a problem.


								41:45.929 --> 41:47.610

								And they're a problem because they're actors.


								41:48.771 --> 41:52.794

								I don't have any special sympathy for any of them because they signed up a long time ago.


								41:52.814 --> 42:02.761

								It has to be that they either are naive, and they just need to keep hearing the truth until it sinks in, or they are actively a part of this, because the truth can't be simpler.


								42:04.756 --> 42:06.117

								I can't make this up.


								42:06.857 --> 42:08.778

								I don't even need to explain this.


								42:10.559 --> 42:12.040

								That line's not level.


								42:12.881 --> 42:18.484

								We had control of the red for decades and then lost control of it for two years.


								42:18.964 --> 42:26.088

								We had relative control over the opioid problems on the streets of America until around 2019.


								42:26.548 --> 42:29.049

								And then we really let it go wild for a while.


								42:29.069 --> 42:33.452

								I mean, those are easy things to talk about.


								42:42.841 --> 42:59.766

								It's also very easy to talk about the irreducibly complex background that is composed of bacteria, archaea, their bactericins, and all these, there's so many compounds that they release.


								42:59.926 --> 43:02.686

								Also their phages and all the different types.


								43:05.787 --> 43:09.788

								And that background is irreducibly complex within our microbiome.


								43:09.828 --> 43:11.929

								It's irreducibly complex on our skin.


								43:13.382 --> 43:16.085

								in our oral cavities, in our lungs even.


								43:17.928 --> 43:32.766

								And so this irreducibly complex background was never dissected before the pandemic, never characterized as a thing.


								43:33.786 --> 43:35.007

								We didn't know what was there.


								43:35.487 --> 43:41.350

								It would be like landing on Earth and having no idea what a bird was, while all the birds are already there.


								43:41.390 --> 43:47.193

								You could spend a lot of time discovering birds while you traveled the world, not knowing that there were any birds at all.


								43:50.054 --> 43:58.959

								And so with a disingenuous rollout of a nonspecific PCR test, you could convince people that, wow, there's birds everywhere.


								43:59.439 --> 44:02.401

								They're loose, because no one else can see them.


								44:03.345 --> 44:05.026

								unless they use your binoculars.


								44:09.450 --> 44:11.371

								That's what the PCR test became.


								44:11.691 --> 44:14.213

								It was, it's a national security operation.


								44:14.233 --> 44:20.898

								There would be no reason to trust the national security state to provide the tests that proved the crisis.


								44:22.480 --> 44:27.163

								And yet they even had people in place to ineffectively argue about the tests.


								44:27.383 --> 44:29.245

								And that's where I came in.


								44:31.844 --> 44:36.748

								As a research assistant professor at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, I was fired for saying this.


								44:38.009 --> 44:47.897

								And in fact, I was hounded by and followed by and harassed by Kevin McKernan of the Human Genome Project, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								44:48.097 --> 44:55.402

								of Children's Health Defense, Meryl Nass of Children's Health Defense, Brian Hooker of Children's Health Defense, Mary Holland of Children's Health Defense.


								44:55.462 --> 44:59.225

								They all harassed and misled me


								45:00.816 --> 45:08.762

								and tricked me into supporting their endeavors when in reality their endeavors were false and they were actually treasonous to America.


								45:10.646 --> 45:32.028

								And so if there is any lawyer out there with whom that might ring a sort of, wow, maybe we can sue Children's Health Defense for having lied to Jonathan Cooey and having misled him about their intentions and sue them as a nonprofit organization for defrauding their funders.


								45:32.869 --> 45:34.030

								I wonder if we could do that.


								45:35.717 --> 45:39.719

								And anybody that's interested in doing that and needs my help, I would be more than happy to.


								45:40.500 --> 45:46.863

								One of the things you have to remember is since I graduated from high school, there's this big bump in the population pyramid they've known was coming.


								45:47.503 --> 45:53.406

								That's why they're worried about social security and the bankrupting of Western societies.


								45:54.267 --> 46:02.271

								Because there is a bump like that in everyone's population pyramid, because after World War II, people came home and had big families.


								46:03.203 --> 46:18.275

								The reason why the population pyramid doesn't continue with that arc is because they spent the next 20 years trying to convince people that there were too many people on the planet and therefore lots and lots of families went from having six kids to went to having two.


								46:20.517 --> 46:24.320

								That's the reality of things and in 2025 that bump is still coming.


								46:25.117 --> 46:27.218

								Those people are retiring right now.


								46:27.318 --> 46:41.564

								Those older ages that have stopped paying taxes and started pulling out of the system, those are some of the richest Americans that will ever live, owning the most property of any American generation that will ever live.


								46:42.844 --> 46:44.625

								You know, five houses, good for me.


								46:46.466 --> 46:52.448

								And so this is an orchestrated take back of a lot of that property and orchestrated take back a lot of that wealth.


								46:53.752 --> 46:59.097

								an orchestrated stripping of whatever's left of America as the dollar is meant to crash.


								46:59.177 --> 47:00.478

								That's what's happening right now.


								47:00.898 --> 47:06.483

								And I said that from my backyard of a house that I lost in 2021.


								47:08.324 --> 47:15.931

								That's why I'm here in my garage in Pittsburgh doing this show now today because of that crime.


								47:16.926 --> 47:35.234

								the crime of the pandemic, the crime of using this population pyramid biology against us, lying about it, and then more importantly, using that lie to conveniently murder a few of these people that will cost the system the most, that had the least to offer us after their retirement.


								47:38.515 --> 47:43.938

								It's a very, very malevolent place that America is in, but this is a anticipated rise.


								47:45.259 --> 47:50.882

								in all cause mortality, that they weaponized against us with actors on social media.


								47:52.062 --> 47:55.164

								And that includes Donald Trump and all the people around him.


								47:55.764 --> 47:57.565

								That includes Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								47:57.585 --> 47:58.966

								and all the people around him.


								47:59.386 --> 48:01.907

								That includes ICANN and all the people around them.


								48:02.108 --> 48:08.611

								Everybody is either wittingly or unwittingly a part of this thing until they start to call it out for what it is.


								48:13.240 --> 48:17.926

								That's why we have a Harvard, the head of Harvard virology is this child.


								48:19.909 --> 48:27.473

								who is ready and willing to testify to his belief in vaccines and in next generation vaccines.


								48:27.873 --> 48:43.702

								And the only useful opposition that we really have on our side to this illusion are those clowns that say there are no viruses at all that are from New Zealand or from the same town as Piper Stover in New York.


								48:47.284 --> 48:49.065

								Ladies and gentlemen, we were trapped.


								48:50.014 --> 48:57.237

								Your family and friends were trapped, were fooled by a very elaborate military operation that would have been very hard to see through.


								48:58.598 --> 49:02.860

								It is possible, remotely possible, that Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								49:02.980 --> 49:17.826

								is a victim of that national security operation, that he himself is not aware that his friends and trusted advisors are all selling him out, using him, and are about to throw him under the bus.


								49:18.806 --> 49:20.607

								It is possible he doesn't know that.


								49:20.647 --> 49:21.567

								It's not very likely.


								49:22.848 --> 49:33.434

								It's much more likely that he signed up a long time ago and he knows that what he's doing is part of what he signed up for, even if he didn't know that this would be where he would be.


								49:34.054 --> 49:38.596

								Maybe he was promised the vice presidency when it would have been a lot easier maybe.


								49:40.703 --> 49:45.527

								I don't really know, I don't have all the answers, but I know for sure that this is about the Human Genome Project.


								49:46.087 --> 49:49.931

								That's why Kevin McKernan called me Chemtrail Retarded.


								49:49.971 --> 49:57.297

								That's why Kevin McKernan has followed me around on social media, has written substacks about me on social media.


								49:57.657 --> 50:04.723

								That's why Kevin McKernan, the Research and Development Director of the Human Genome Project, can be linked to Kevin McCairn.


								50:05.383 --> 50:23.510

								can be linked to Steve Kirsch, can be linked to Meryl Nass and Robert Malone and Brian Hooker and the authors of the Corman-Jorston report that include Mike Yeadon and Claire Craig of the 100,000 Genomes Project in the UK.


								50:23.970 --> 50:31.833

								It was the militarization of public health and the slow inversion of our sovereignty.


								50:36.451 --> 50:40.235

								By this time I was fairly widely published and known in the field.


								50:41.116 --> 50:48.343

								And my mentor wasn't anywhere near, wasn't any better known than I was, so we were seen as sort of two young Turks.


								50:50.425 --> 50:51.446

								And he called me and he said,


								50:53.351 --> 50:55.393

								We're just picking up where we left off yesterday.


								50:55.414 --> 51:08.828

								We're talking about how he was invited to the Salk Institute by Dalbeco and then went back to MIT to work with Salvador Luria, I believe.


								51:09.389 --> 51:10.630

								He was at Caltech at the time?


								51:11.357 --> 51:21.525

								He said, I have made a commitment to go to the New Salk Institute, which is going to be formed in Ohio, and I would love to have you come as a junior faculty member in my unit.


								51:22.346 --> 51:26.129

								It wasn't really departments in the usual sense, but he had space.


								51:26.169 --> 51:34.155

								He could do anything he wanted with it, and he was offering me some of that space to do my program in, working on RNA viruses.


								51:36.337 --> 51:39.679

								And then ensued this wonderful.


								51:40.831 --> 51:44.453

								uncertainty about whether the Salk Institute was actually going to exist or not.


								51:46.034 --> 51:51.637

								And I would get these notes from Delbecos or calls from Delbecos.


								51:52.158 --> 51:58.862

								So yesterday, one of the things that I hope you noticed was that he tells a lot of stories about the people.


								51:58.882 --> 52:00.703

								He tells a lot of stories about


								52:01.463 --> 52:04.504

								I don't know, things that don't matter for the science.


								52:04.584 --> 52:09.185

								And in fact, he often avoids talking about the science because that's for another time.


								52:09.685 --> 52:24.170

								And so this is quite extraordinary, given that he's supposed to be an incredibly influential godfather of molecular biology, who's made a number of discoveries worthy of potentially a Nobel Prize and having been awarded one.


								52:25.060 --> 52:34.503

								So it's remarkable how like, you know, if you were talking to Miles Davis, his answer would be, well, I changed music five times in my life.


								52:34.863 --> 52:36.483

								That would have been the first thing he said.


								52:36.523 --> 52:38.184

								So, you know, what did you do with your career?


								52:38.204 --> 52:39.924

								He kind of says, yeah, I don't know.


								52:39.984 --> 52:42.085

								I just kind of was in the right place at the right time.


								52:42.125 --> 52:46.426

								You know, nothing that I did is really worth noteworthy of mention, or at least not in this interview.


								52:47.986 --> 52:54.208

								It's almost like the three guys coming back from the moon and they're just not really that excited about having gotten back alive.


								52:55.399 --> 53:05.731

								not very happy to be telling everybody about how exciting it was to have pulled off the greatest, you know, feat in American and human history, walking on the moon.


								53:06.672 --> 53:14.041

								And instead, they look as though they stole the car and got caught because they got arrested or something.


								53:14.101 --> 53:14.422

								I don't know.


								53:14.482 --> 53:15.082

								It's bizarre.


								53:15.783 --> 53:29.233

								And this guy doesn't come off to me as a Nobel Prize winner with great insight into biology that because he has such great insight is able to share very easily.


								53:29.253 --> 53:31.474

								It doesn't come off like that at all.


								53:31.995 --> 53:33.236

								And so that's where we're starting.


								53:33.696 --> 53:39.080

								And we're doing this because I think we're trying to figure out what happened between


								53:40.686 --> 53:55.114

								bacteria and bacteriophages being the primary model of genetic investigation to the pivot to animal viruses and the assumption that we have animal viruses that we can culture and use


								53:55.914 --> 53:59.578

								to interact with mammalian cells.


								53:59.638 --> 54:12.190

								And so then there's no reason to work on bacteria and bacteriophages anymore, except for in the context of, of course, you know, all the pharmaceutical manufacturing of protein biologics in the world.


								54:12.230 --> 54:13.832

								But that's neither here nor there.


								54:15.053 --> 54:15.994

								Don't make any plans.


								54:16.980 --> 54:18.982

								because I'm not positive it's going to happen.


								54:19.602 --> 54:22.165

								But we're having a meeting next week, and I'll get back to you.


								54:22.565 --> 54:26.909

								So meeting occurs next week, gets back to me and says, looks like it's going to happen.


								54:27.189 --> 54:27.930

								Start making plans.


								54:27.950 --> 54:30.572

								A couple weeks later, we're running into trouble.


								54:31.853 --> 54:35.477

								And so this went back and forth until finally he said, yes, it's going to happen.


								54:36.257 --> 54:41.963

								And I got in the car and came out to California, which was


								54:43.689 --> 54:45.976

								By that time, I had once before been to California.


								54:46.016 --> 54:49.407

								I'd flown out there to lecture at Caltech.


								54:49.688 --> 54:50.951

								Not so much of a culture shock.


								54:51.638 --> 54:52.719

								Well, it was a culture shock.


								54:52.739 --> 54:54.020

								It was an enormous culture shock.


								54:55.741 --> 55:09.110

								And particularly in this sort of unformed world of La Jolla at the time, where they were just starting up the university, and the Salk Institute was brand new, and we were working these temporary buildings.


								55:09.870 --> 55:21.278

								When I arrived at the Salk Institute, they built labs for me in the basement of this temporary building while the main building was going up.


								55:22.599 --> 55:27.905

								And they had to take a rattlesnake out of the lab in order to get me in there.


								55:28.666 --> 55:30.608

								That was just, this was the Wild West.


								55:34.400 --> 55:37.762

								So you were there for three years, and then you wound up coming back to MIT.


								55:37.782 --> 55:38.443

								SKOLNIKOFF That's right.


								55:38.723 --> 55:40.024

								INTERVIEWER What was the draw?


								55:40.364 --> 55:42.545

								SKOLNIKOFF The MIT yo-yo.


								55:42.605 --> 55:45.567

								The draw was that I loved MIT.


								55:45.727 --> 55:49.890

								I had loved my two years here as a graduate student and postdoc.


								55:52.371 --> 55:58.896

								And it was all about Salvador Luria, because while I was at


								56:02.511 --> 56:11.237

								And I picked up virus work again after my post-doc, and I was publishing some interesting stuff.


								56:12.698 --> 56:18.462

								And a professor at Harvard became aware of it, Bernie Davis.


								56:19.683 --> 56:22.505

								And Bernie said, would you come and look at a job at Harvard?


								56:24.487 --> 56:27.389

								And I said, I'll come, give a seminar.


								56:28.590 --> 56:29.190

								And so I did.


								56:30.655 --> 56:31.676

								And Luria heard about it.


								56:32.737 --> 56:39.505

								And Luria then engineered an offer to me on the basis of what people knew about me.


								56:39.565 --> 56:43.589

								I don't think I came and gave a little seminar.


								56:46.832 --> 56:48.434

								Because he didn't want me to go to Harvard.


								56:49.315 --> 56:51.057

								He said if you're going to go anywhere, you should come to MIT.


								56:52.811 --> 57:00.553

								And anyway, in the end, Bernie Davis didn't offer me a job because I didn't show enough enthusiasm for teaching to satisfy him.


								57:01.133 --> 57:02.193

								It's an interesting story.


								57:03.234 --> 57:06.495

								And so I had this offer from MIT.


								57:06.995 --> 57:13.016

								And then it's a sort of long story what made me make the decision.


								57:13.036 --> 57:15.217

								But anyway, I decided I wanted to leave Salk.


								57:15.917 --> 57:20.378

								And so I pulled this offer out of my drawer and called up Salva and said I'm coming.


								57:24.622 --> 57:27.803

								In those days we didn't negotiate for anything.


								57:28.503 --> 57:35.525

								When I came back as a postdoc, I was actually supported on a training grant of Luria's.


								57:36.705 --> 57:39.886

								Luria just watched over me the whole time.


								57:40.006 --> 57:47.408

								So I felt very comfortable that I was coming back to a situation where I'll be treated well and I'll get what I need to do what I want to do.


								57:48.362 --> 57:50.283

								The importance of mentors.


								57:50.624 --> 57:59.470

								I said last night in a tribute to Luria that he's my father in some very real ways.


								58:00.871 --> 58:02.933

								And I try to be a dutiful son.


								58:04.102 --> 58:11.468

								That's remarkable because that's basically how Vincent Racaniello would like you to think of him with regards to David Baltimore.


								58:11.528 --> 58:18.033

								So we could be really two mentor steps away from the truth right now.


								58:19.355 --> 58:31.925

								If Salvador Luria was a guy who understood the limitations of molecular biology and went ahead under the pretenses that animal virology was animal virology and that's it,


								58:35.362 --> 58:39.825

								then we just could be, you know, taking David Baltimore's word for it.


								58:40.865 --> 58:47.589

								Taking Vincent Racaniello's word for it is terrifying, but that's essentially where we are right now, as of his death.


								58:53.252 --> 59:02.237

								Can you walk me through, in a kind of summary fashion, your research after you got here?


								59:05.034 --> 59:05.975

								Yes, I can.


								59:06.315 --> 59:14.219

								So I came here having started as a graduate student working on, we'll call it poliovirus.


								59:14.259 --> 59:18.201

								I was actually working on a relative of polio, but then I switched to working with polio itself.


								59:20.602 --> 59:21.582

								It's an RNA virus.


								59:23.493 --> 59:28.675

								has a very particular biology because it is an RNA virus.


								59:28.975 --> 59:38.318

								There was very, very little known about the biochemistry of RNA virus infections, and so that's why I say I had walked into a totally open situation.


								59:38.338 --> 59:45.760

								I had made a lot of discoveries about it, and there were lots of fascinating things about it.


								59:49.824 --> 59:55.793

								When I arrived back here, it was to continue to work on poliovirus.


								59:55.813 --> 01:00:03.804

								I set up the lab to do that, and I got graduate students and postdocs.


								01:00:03.864 --> 01:00:04.866

								Things were going very well.


								01:00:05.934 --> 01:00:09.636

								One of the people in my lab, I married, Alice Wong.


								01:00:11.837 --> 01:00:16.139

								And she had actually come to my lab first at the Salk Institute.


								01:00:16.999 --> 01:00:18.640

								And we had come east together.


								01:00:18.920 --> 01:00:22.622

								And it was, by that time, no surprise that we got married.


								01:00:23.903 --> 01:00:27.965

								And she had, for her thesis.


								01:00:29.235 --> 01:00:33.997

								worked on a very different kind of RNA virus called vesicular stomatitis virus.


								01:00:34.057 --> 01:00:48.003

								And she'd made very important discoveries about it and then had originally come to work with me in order to develop her skills in various new approaches to viruses that we were using on polio.


								01:00:48.363 --> 01:00:49.544

								So she was working on polio.


								01:00:52.406 --> 01:00:58.050

								And that was the only object of focus of my lab.


								01:00:58.730 --> 01:01:06.415

								And she said one day, you know, it might be fun to pick up VSV again, this virus that she'd worked on.


								01:01:07.296 --> 01:01:14.661

								Now, I find it very curious, first of all, that somebody would work on poliovirus when essentially there's a vaccine that makes polio irrelevant.


								01:01:15.757 --> 01:01:17.238

								So why do you work on it then?


								01:01:17.298 --> 01:01:21.062

								Is the idea to, I don't know, understand?


								01:01:21.082 --> 01:01:28.829

								I mean, how can I say this the useful way?


								01:01:28.909 --> 01:01:30.931

								I don't, I don't fully get it.


								01:01:31.791 --> 01:01:33.113

								You can do anything you want.


								01:01:33.153 --> 01:01:37.116

								You can work on anything you want, but you work on polio virus.


								01:01:37.136 --> 01:01:37.897

								You see, there's a,


								01:01:40.265 --> 01:01:49.748

								Of course the great big assumption here is that all of these signals that they're measuring are outside of us and independent of us or our microbiome.


								01:01:50.668 --> 01:01:58.091

								They're just all entities in and of themselves and he's the expert on them and is sure of that for some reason.


								01:01:59.929 --> 01:02:02.211

								That's the part of it that doesn't make any sense to me.


								01:02:02.251 --> 01:02:13.298

								And all the books that I've read so far and all the papers that I've read so far in my entire lifetime have never given me any, you know, even cartoon level understanding of how that would be possible.


								01:02:14.879 --> 01:02:21.864

								And instead, what I see is it's very likely that all eukaryotes already signal in this way, extracellularly.


								01:02:22.965 --> 01:02:29.069

								And it's not, you know, cells that are getting rid of waste material or anything like that, but it's communication.


								01:02:30.413 --> 01:02:31.553

								it's homeostasis.


								01:02:31.833 --> 01:02:36.014

								I don't know what it all is, but it's something that already occurs.


								01:02:36.275 --> 01:02:44.137

								And so these signals that they're telling us are outside of us and do things despite us or, or collaborate against us.


								01:02:44.217 --> 01:02:53.279

								These are all, these are myths because they require you to not think about the bacteria, the microbiome and their,


								01:02:54.059 --> 01:02:58.323

								phages and their bactericins.


								01:02:58.803 --> 01:03:04.908

								They don't want you to think about anything that bacteria do, release, excrete, regulate.


								01:03:05.548 --> 01:03:13.635

								They don't want you to think about any of the genetic signals that might come from that in and of itself irreducibly complex background.


								01:03:14.540 --> 01:03:17.261

								Never mind what we are as people.


								01:03:17.381 --> 01:03:22.403

								If you just think about everything that's not bacteria, we're still pretty darn complex.


								01:03:22.503 --> 01:03:41.930

								But we wouldn't exist at all without the compost heap that we carry around in our guts, without the microbiome that we have on our skin and lining the mucosal layer of our internals, a mucosal layer that is very homologous to the mucus on coral reefs.


								01:03:43.627 --> 01:03:56.290

								The microbiome that is compartmentalized very homologous to that in insects and lots of other, you know, life forms, even the microbiome of the roots of plants.


								01:03:59.727 --> 01:04:05.170

								And so this new biology is going to be quite exciting to put together.


								01:04:05.210 --> 01:04:07.311

								It is quite exciting to be putting together.


								01:04:07.912 --> 01:04:12.714

								And it is the flip side of the coin is this pseudobiology.


								01:04:12.754 --> 01:04:15.776

								It's what makes the new biology look so good.


								01:04:16.256 --> 01:04:19.718

								And obviously it's because it fits the whole so much better, right?


								01:04:20.839 --> 01:04:28.383

								Everything fits into place a lot better when you start talking about life as an irreducibly complex pattern integrity with a trajectory across time.


								01:04:31.022 --> 01:04:42.452

								rather than the mechanical and chemical product of a single tape of information called DNA, or 23 of them in pairs.


								01:04:43.953 --> 01:04:45.334

								I'm excited, ladies and gentlemen.


								01:04:47.096 --> 01:04:51.820

								And by this time, I had been working on polio for much of 10 years.


								01:04:53.161 --> 01:04:58.166

								And so the idea of doing something new was a good idea.


								01:04:59.492 --> 01:05:11.740

								Anyway, I had various interests in viruses, and so I could have a look at a new virus and see how it related to the virus I'd worked on.


								01:05:13.221 --> 01:05:17.583

								So we started growing it, and I had a graduate student start working on it.


								01:05:18.744 --> 01:05:25.028

								Alice went back to working on it a little bit, and I did some work, because at that point I worked in the lab.


								01:05:27.549 --> 01:05:31.411

								We made some really remarkable discoveries about VSV.


								01:05:32.891 --> 01:05:37.373

								It was fundamentally different than polio in all of its strategies.


								01:05:38.934 --> 01:05:44.236

								I could describe why, but that's another story.


								01:05:44.316 --> 01:05:48.518

								I did one last experiment I did with it.


								01:05:49.560 --> 01:05:58.504

								was to show that it contained a polymerase in the virus particle that copied the genome into complementary RNA.


								01:05:59.704 --> 01:06:07.248

								Very different than polio, which encoded a polymerase that was made in the infected cells, but didn't carry it in with it.


								01:06:09.369 --> 01:06:12.390

								And that experiment


								01:06:14.136 --> 01:06:23.843

								led me to think maybe there are a lot of other viruses that have polymerases in their virion because that would provide a unifying notion of how these viruses work.


								01:06:25.104 --> 01:06:25.805

								And so we started.


								01:06:26.725 --> 01:06:32.590

								And in my humble opinion what it actually does is it belies the national security lie.


								01:06:33.601 --> 01:06:50.948

								Because rather than the magic of viruses being that they contain the instructions to make more of themselves, and once they get inside of your cells, they are able to hijack that machinery and instruct it to make the proteins that are unique to it.


								01:06:52.142 --> 01:07:08.934

								that those proteins will fold and assemble correctly and then know enough and be directed to copy that new foreign RNA genome and then instruct the machinery of the cell to make the proteins necessary to package that mRNA


								01:07:09.654 --> 01:07:16.199

								around N-proteins, bundle it up, and put it into particles that are identical to the particle that came in.


								01:07:16.620 --> 01:07:26.788

								And this DNA code is about 30,000 base pairs long, and all we really know is that there's a spike protein, an N-protein, an S-protein, and da-la-la-la.


								01:07:28.630 --> 01:07:30.631

								And the rest we take on their word.


								01:07:31.232 --> 01:07:33.173

								The rest we trust to cartoons.


								01:07:34.014 --> 01:07:36.116

								The rest we trust to people like this.


								01:07:37.338 --> 01:07:44.603

								It is because David Baltimore says that these particles have enzymes in them that proves how they work.


								01:07:45.423 --> 01:07:48.525

								And it's in its insistence that that's all it proves.


								01:07:48.585 --> 01:08:06.737

								When in fact, what it shows is that the human body and a lot of other mammalian systems are capable of packaging RNA and maybe also an appropriate enzyme into a small exosome and secrete it.


								01:08:09.775 --> 01:08:10.736

								That's all it says.


								01:08:12.758 --> 01:08:21.226

								And so the coexistence of these particles, the coexistence of these signals with other symptomologies is only that.


								01:08:21.306 --> 01:08:23.868

								It's only correlation if that.


								01:08:24.629 --> 01:08:30.955

								If they're telling the truth about the molecular signals that they purport to be finding and reproducing.


								01:08:32.745 --> 01:08:53.884

								Now, keep in mind, during this time at MIT that he says he worked on the polio virus and VSV virus and made lots of discoveries with his lover and to become his wife, is when him and Vincent Ranson Yellow were able to use the technology for the Human Genome Project to create the RNA


								01:08:56.093 --> 01:09:04.530

								of the poliovirus sequence and transfect cells with it and cause the formation of more poliovirus particles apparently.


								01:09:08.587 --> 01:09:29.052

								So the first ever employment of synthetic pure quantities of DNA or RNA in order to transform cell cultures to produce exosomes with particularly, let's say, predictable quantities inside of them was accomplished by him at MIT with poliovirus.


								01:09:29.112 --> 01:09:31.692

								But somehow or another, that's not part of it.


								01:09:31.712 --> 01:09:33.713

								He's talking about his wife and VSV.


								01:09:36.397 --> 01:09:38.538

								gathering viruses from various places.


								01:09:38.638 --> 01:09:46.101

								And in fact, it turned out to be true, that a lot of other viruses had polymerases, and we published a number of papers on it and worked on it.


								01:09:47.761 --> 01:10:03.287

								And by that time, we could pretty well characterize most viruses in terms of their overall strategy, except for the RNA tumor viruses, which caused cancer as their primary interest.


								01:10:04.699 --> 01:10:09.304

								And that and so he's involved with cancer viruses, just like Bob Gallo.


								01:10:14.389 --> 01:10:26.182

								He's involved in the myth of cancer, just like Bob Gallo, you see, all these people that went through that, that lab, that area, that timeframe,


								01:10:27.469 --> 01:10:30.191

								The ones that are still around, they seem very sketch.


								01:10:30.291 --> 01:10:36.395

								And you can put Robert Malone right damn well right in the middle of that little Lollapalooza of liars, I assure you.


								01:10:37.416 --> 01:10:39.698

								Had a totally obscure molecular biology.


								01:10:40.298 --> 01:10:46.183

								How they, what polymerases they used, how they dealt with information, all of that was totally unclear.


								01:10:47.389 --> 01:11:00.075

								But Howard Temin had, for 10 years, been saying that their RNA viruses, they pretty well have to copy their RNA into DNA to make any sense out of the way they transform cells, the way they cause cancer.


								01:11:01.416 --> 01:11:02.257

								But he couldn't prove that.


								01:11:03.617 --> 01:11:14.403

								And really, almost nobody believed him until about the last year before I got involved with it, where there started to be some glimmers of suggestion that maybe he was right.


								01:11:16.739 --> 01:11:34.586

								I think that David Baltimore was inserted in front of Howard Temin so that reverse transcriptase would never be identified as an endogenous enzyme, but would be assigned to the foreign entity of the viruses.


								01:11:36.158 --> 01:11:42.880

								So I did with RNA tumor viruses, what I had done with many other viruses, was to look in the virus particle for polymerase.


								01:11:43.460 --> 01:11:51.542

								But in this case, because of the possibility that it might copy into DNA, we looked for an enzyme that would copy RNA into DNA.


								01:11:52.142 --> 01:12:03.305

								Such an enzyme had never been seen before, and its existence would have, and did, violate the central dogma of molecular biology as enunciated by Crick.


								01:12:04.145 --> 01:12:07.889

								which was that DNA made RNA made protein.


								01:12:08.269 --> 01:12:20.863

								And so the point of it is, is that if David Baltimore and his work are responsible for making sure that you never realize that our RNA can be back translated into DNA or modify the DNA


								01:12:21.623 --> 01:12:35.468

								or anything like that might happen, then you'll never attribute this to our own biology, but instead attribute all these magic, magic enzymes to the world of viruses.


								01:12:36.449 --> 01:12:38.109

								Understand what he's saying.


								01:12:38.970 --> 01:12:45.272

								The virology biology has virtually a functional lock


								01:12:46.269 --> 01:12:52.653

								a monopoly on all of the enzymes that violate the central dogma.


								01:12:53.654 --> 01:12:58.737

								None of the enzymes that violate the central dogma are ours.


								01:12:59.218 --> 01:13:09.084

								They are the property of viruses that, to a large extent, have been defined by David Baltimore and his wife.


								01:13:16.172 --> 01:13:18.494

								And here we're going to say that there's information flow back.


								01:13:18.554 --> 01:13:33.446

								Now, when you think about it, from a chemical point of view... When you think about it, if it's a pathogen and it's putting its DNA where it's not supposed to be, it's not information flow back.


								01:13:36.331 --> 01:13:43.433

								And yet somehow or another, this extremely smart Nobel Prize winning man calls it information flow backwards.


								01:13:43.953 --> 01:13:48.734

								Wouldn't it be pathogenic genetic insertion of information?


								01:13:48.774 --> 01:13:56.215

								It's not information flow backwards unless it's our own enzyme and unless our system uses that process, right?


								01:13:56.695 --> 01:14:00.256

								It's a weird sort of semantic inaccuracy.


								01:14:02.117 --> 01:14:03.397

								That was not a big deal.


								01:14:04.522 --> 01:14:06.484

								If RNA made DNA, DNA made RNA.


								01:14:06.524 --> 01:14:18.334

								It was all the same sort of polymerization reaction and the same basic biochemistry, but it had never been seen and nobody knew it could happen.


								01:14:19.074 --> 01:14:28.662

								From a strategic point of view, in terms of the strategies of information flow in the system, it had enormous implications.


								01:14:29.730 --> 01:14:31.770

								So I looked for it and it was a two-day experiment.


								01:14:31.810 --> 01:14:32.631

								I showed it was there.


								01:14:36.171 --> 01:14:41.453

								He showed it was there and attributed it to the virus and the rest is history.


								01:14:42.853 --> 01:14:45.233

								Because now you have to argue with his dead body.


								01:14:47.594 --> 01:14:52.635

								Stopped work for a while to protest against the Cambodia invasion.


								01:14:53.395 --> 01:14:56.036

								Got back into the lab, finished the experiments and published them.


								01:14:57.226 --> 01:14:58.427

								That was June 1970.


								01:14:58.807 --> 01:15:00.448

								What a weird thing to say.


								01:15:00.548 --> 01:15:00.809

								Wow.


								01:15:00.849 --> 01:15:04.011

								He protested the Cambodia invasion.


								01:15:04.091 --> 01:15:04.351

								Nice.


								01:15:06.752 --> 01:15:14.898

								Howard Temenak, turns out, had a post-doc, Mr. Tani, who at the same time did similar experiments.


								01:15:14.958 --> 01:15:16.258

								And so we published back to back.


								01:15:16.339 --> 01:15:19.581

								And five years later we received the Nobel Prize for it.


								01:15:19.601 --> 01:15:26.085

								INTERVIEWER 1 Did the Nobel Prize, was it a surprise to you?


								01:15:26.878 --> 01:15:28.079

								a total surprise.


								01:15:28.399 --> 01:15:38.828

								I was actually on sabbatical in New York when it was announced, and I got on the first shuttle flight that I could find and flew up to Boston to celebrate.


								01:15:41.991 --> 01:15:43.112

								My wife wasn't even around.


								01:15:43.152 --> 01:15:44.253

								She was in


								01:15:46.452 --> 01:15:47.413

								She had called me.


								01:15:47.953 --> 01:15:56.299

								She told me I'd won the prize first because she was at a scientific meeting in Scandinavia and heard about it a little before it was formally announced.


								01:15:57.139 --> 01:15:57.499

								Called me.


								01:16:01.582 --> 01:16:04.244

								I didn't even know really when the prizes were announced.


								01:16:04.524 --> 01:16:05.405

								I wasn't aware of them.


								01:16:06.625 --> 01:16:08.307

								People had said you're going to win a Nobel Prize.


								01:16:08.367 --> 01:16:09.868

								I figured that someday it'll happen when I'm 60.


								01:16:10.648 --> 01:16:14.951

								INTERVIEWER 1 Did it turn out to be difficult to get it so young?


								01:16:16.568 --> 01:16:17.369

								Not difficult.


								01:16:17.389 --> 01:16:18.789

								What a stupid question.


								01:16:19.550 --> 01:16:24.073

								No, it was perfectly easy.


								01:16:24.813 --> 01:16:27.915

								Went to Stockholm and were anointed.


								01:16:29.076 --> 01:16:30.917

								I thought you had to nominate yourself.


								01:16:31.938 --> 01:16:32.798

								Is that not true?


								01:16:32.858 --> 01:16:33.699

								Somebody correct me.


								01:16:33.739 --> 01:16:35.080

								I thought you had to nominate yourself.


								01:16:35.480 --> 01:16:37.921

								Did it make a difference in your work?


								01:16:38.201 --> 01:16:44.185

								Well, it certainly made a difference in my life in the sense that it


								01:16:47.378 --> 01:17:00.556

								It gave me a public, I mean not real public, but scientific public notoriety that led people to invite me to all sorts of fancy.


								01:17:00.836 --> 01:17:04.641

								It gives him a scientific sort of infallibility is what it does.


								01:17:05.835 --> 01:17:07.837

								It gets people to treat him like a rock star.


								01:17:07.937 --> 01:17:13.580

								It gets people to stay away from any of the things that they've declared unequivocally true.


								01:17:14.641 --> 01:17:31.852

								And essentially by giving him the Nobel prize, everything that he stands for as an RNA virologist and a guy that thinks that the viruses have come up with all these unique ways to violate the central dogma with fancy enzymes, this guy is real.


								01:17:32.662 --> 01:17:40.564

								This science is real, and therefore, we all have to accept that none of this enzymology has anything to do with our own biology.


								01:17:40.624 --> 01:17:49.427

								It's just the viruses that are all working against us with a great deal of, I don't know, evolutionary determination.


								01:17:53.788 --> 01:17:59.190

								Venues, and to even want to hear me pontificate on things I didn't know anything about.


								01:18:00.256 --> 01:18:05.418

								But so it was a distraction to some extent.


								01:18:05.438 --> 01:18:07.739

								It was an opportunity from other points of view.


								01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:12.321

								And it was a responsibility.


								01:18:13.277 --> 01:18:22.624

								because there are very few Nobel laureates, and we are seen as a sort of embodiment of the science in which we're involved.


								01:18:23.165 --> 01:18:25.186

								So he totally understands, you see.


								01:18:25.967 --> 01:18:32.032

								It's not at all a humble scientist who just wanted to know like he claims it was.


								01:18:32.052 --> 01:18:37.256

								It was a guy who understood how easy it was to make and discover new things.


								01:18:39.458 --> 01:18:42.300

								It was a guy who was enticed by something else, I think.


								01:18:44.349 --> 01:18:51.273

								I think it's very interesting that he passed through all of these laboratories, but never really tells you what he got out of all of them.


								01:18:51.914 --> 01:18:55.436

								I think what it was is that molecular biology was stalling.


								01:18:56.297 --> 01:19:02.561

								Molecular biology was stalling in the hands of Max Delbruck and DeBecco and Rebecca and all these guys.


								01:19:03.141 --> 01:19:08.264

								And it was stalling because bacteria and bacteriophages were an irreducible complexity.


								01:19:09.125 --> 01:19:13.688

								And the farther they got into it, the more irreducibly complex it seemed.


								01:19:15.484 --> 01:19:27.237

								And of course, with metagenomic sequencing, we've come to understand the world of phages and bacteria as incredibly complex, irreducibly so.


								01:19:28.058 --> 01:19:34.105

								The world of viruses in the microplankton of the ocean is a universe in and of itself.


								01:19:35.100 --> 01:19:45.968

								And so these genetic backgrounds are real and maybe the foundational biological firmware on which we have evolved or emerged.


								01:19:47.049 --> 01:19:56.256

								The very emergent properties that we are might be dependent on this entire bacteria background that we have on Earth.


								01:19:58.772 --> 01:20:17.829

								We might be the second or third layer of emergent properties from physics and chemistry that originate from the genetic background that is created by the genetic noise that is created by the entire bacteria, archaea, all this stuff that is the microflora of our planet.


								01:20:22.708 --> 01:20:30.650

								And so we think of birds and you know, all the stuff that David Attenborough was talking about is life on earth.


								01:20:30.750 --> 01:20:50.875

								But if that life on earth is just the tip of the iceberg, and that the actual iceberg that's under the water is all the microbiome of the earth, and all of the genetic signaling and all the proteomics of that microbiome is the foundational soil, the genetic soil that we grow in.


								01:20:52.423 --> 01:21:01.190

								then all this talk about the Baltimore scheme and about viruses and about all these polymerases that are unique to viruses is just bullshit.


								01:21:02.211 --> 01:21:12.980

								It's bullshit that's trying to tell you a ridiculous story about an irreducibly complex microbiome of the earth, of which we are an emergent property.


								01:21:15.522 --> 01:21:17.764

								You can almost think of us as


								01:21:22.722 --> 01:21:24.903

								as bio suits for bacteria.


								01:21:27.904 --> 01:21:36.548

								Or the consequences of, I don't know, it's hard to really say it without, you know, giving away the whole book.


								01:21:36.688 --> 01:21:38.789

								But it's, I'm really excited.


								01:21:38.889 --> 01:21:41.770

								I'm really excited because this new biology is real.


								01:21:42.551 --> 01:21:49.694

								And I think it's at the perfect time in American history for that biology to come out in America first.


								01:21:50.620 --> 01:22:07.551

								And so we become the spokesman for all those thousands of other people who don't have Nobel Prizes, but who are working toward exactly the same aims that I'm working toward in terms of development of knowledge about biological systems.


								01:22:08.912 --> 01:22:10.072

								So that's a responsibility.


								01:22:10.092 --> 01:22:13.715

								INTERVIEWER 1 I would imagine it makes it easier to get funding for things.


								01:22:14.531 --> 01:22:18.876

								So everybody imagines it would make it easier to get funding, and it's not really true.


								01:22:19.396 --> 01:22:30.067

								In fact, the panels that review you are as likely to turn down a Nobel laureate as anybody else if they don't think you're making sense.


								01:22:33.446 --> 01:22:43.015

								I think there's always a suspicion, in fact, that you're trying to coast on your laurels rather than getting down there in the trenches with everybody else.


								01:22:44.036 --> 01:22:46.938

								So no, I don't think it's that.


								01:22:47.098 --> 01:22:59.970

								Now, from other points of view, particularly if you're getting money not from the federal government through the peer review system, but through other venues, charitable organizations and things like that.


								01:23:01.346 --> 01:23:13.572

								Then having a Nobel Prize gives you a visibility, and they want you in their stable, because then they can say we're funding 20 Nobel laureates or whatever.


								01:23:14.572 --> 01:23:19.094

								So there is, from those points of view, an opportunity.


								01:23:21.767 --> 01:23:30.011

								I don't know whether I ever would have been introduced to Jack Whitehead, which is now a story coming up here.


								01:23:30.652 --> 01:23:31.272

								My next one.


								01:23:31.292 --> 01:23:32.132

								Yes, okay.


								01:23:32.833 --> 01:23:34.213

								A story coming up here.


								01:23:34.314 --> 01:23:36.094

								See, he knows that there's a script.


								01:23:36.175 --> 01:23:37.715

								She says, yeah, it's the next one.


								01:23:37.735 --> 01:23:40.637

								They laugh because this is a scripted interview.


								01:23:42.138 --> 01:23:46.100

								A scripted interview with no science at all.


								01:23:49.673 --> 01:23:52.415

								I mean, what an archive for MIT, right?


								01:23:52.495 --> 01:23:54.577

								Like, what a bullshit show.


								01:23:56.078 --> 01:24:09.830

								Don't forget that MIT is right at the heart of this, because Stephanie Seneff is MIT, because Steve Kirsch is MIT, because the guy with Gene Drives is MIT Media Lab's runner.


								01:24:09.950 --> 01:24:12.272

								Like, MIT is there, yo.


								01:24:16.401 --> 01:24:24.667

								If I didn't have a Nobel Prize, I just don't know actually, literally, how much a role that played.


								01:24:24.947 --> 01:24:29.550

								But it certainly made me a more visible person to him and to other people.


								01:24:30.351 --> 01:24:32.092

								Yeah, there are a lot of pluses.


								01:24:34.880 --> 01:24:40.022

								So let's talk about the Whitehead Institute, since you were so involved in its creation.


								01:24:41.122 --> 01:24:43.843

								And I'm interested in how it came about.


								01:24:43.903 --> 01:24:49.825

								That kind of makes him Kevin McKernan's boss, because he was Mike Lander's boss.


								01:24:50.466 --> 01:24:54.627

								It's very interesting, the Whitehead Institute.


								01:24:55.327 --> 01:24:58.549

								About the objections that existed at the very beginning.


								01:25:00.498 --> 01:25:21.184

								Well, in 1980, so I won the prize in 75, and I came back to MIT, and now I actually switched my research focus from viruses to immunology, and then carried actually both interests in parallel for many years thereafter.


								01:25:23.048 --> 01:25:33.491

								So I become interested in cellular systems and in the development of the immune system, which is just one of the most wonderful puzzles in biology.


								01:25:34.211 --> 01:25:37.932

								The most wonderful puzzles in biology, the development of the immune system.


								01:25:37.972 --> 01:25:43.553

								And you can augment the development of the immune system by intramuscularly injecting a combination of substances.


								01:25:44.553 --> 01:25:46.014

								We've been doing it for centuries.


								01:25:49.753 --> 01:25:53.035

								Do you see why now you know that he's a scripted actor?


								01:25:53.115 --> 01:25:54.376

								That's just absurd.


								01:25:54.877 --> 01:26:09.307

								But it's really nice because if our immune system was to use retroviruses, I don't know, to modify T-cells across, you know, the entire body or modify the function of immune cells across the entire body, that would be a terrible thing for us to understand.


								01:26:09.707 --> 01:26:11.768

								And so they call it retroviruses.


								01:26:11.788 --> 01:26:12.989

								They're all outside of us.


								01:26:13.049 --> 01:26:16.712

								We don't know where they come from, but they're just floating around and sometimes they get inside.


								01:26:18.936 --> 01:26:26.960

								It was a problem that I had an interest in from the time I'd been at the Salk Institute, so for maybe 15 years.


								01:26:27.020 --> 01:26:27.420

								Or 10 years.


								01:26:28.541 --> 01:26:36.284

								But I hadn't done anything about it because you couldn't work on it from a molecular point of view.


								01:26:36.324 --> 01:26:38.105

								You could work on it from various other points of view.


								01:26:38.886 --> 01:26:46.069

								And then Susumu Tanegawa did his great experiment, which opened up the molecular biology of the immune system.


								01:26:48.062 --> 01:26:56.008

								And I wanted to get into that business and really, I had this itch I hadn't scratched for all those years.


								01:26:57.229 --> 01:27:01.492

								And so from between 75 and 80, I developed that.


								01:27:02.492 --> 01:27:05.334

								So Susumu Tonigawa was the guy I mentioned yesterday.


								01:27:05.414 --> 01:27:16.322

								He's the guy who discovered the way that a set of genes in B cell clones, in B cells can be used, spliced and


								01:27:18.381 --> 01:27:20.166

								And... what the hell?


								01:27:26.224 --> 01:27:27.805

								Oh, I think it's Ravens.


								01:27:29.246 --> 01:27:39.673

								The DNA can be spliced and somatically mutated to generate almost infinite complexity in the variable region of antibodies.


								01:27:39.733 --> 01:27:46.078

								And this discovery is a single author paper that he was awarded the Nobel Prize for, really nice work.


								01:27:47.038 --> 01:27:50.541

								And then later in his career, he switched to neuroscience, and that's how I got to meet him.


								01:27:51.561 --> 01:28:02.205

								I actually met him at a meeting in Svalbard or on Spitsbergen in Norway, and he's a very interesting, intimidating figure, of course.


								01:28:02.925 --> 01:28:11.988

								Anybody who's won the Nobel Prize, if you meet him at a scientific meeting, is in his, you know, in his home waters, and so it's pretty intimidating.


								01:28:12.028 --> 01:28:13.189

								I didn't do much more than


								01:28:13.849 --> 01:28:15.932

								ask him a dumb question or two and shake his hand.


								01:28:16.873 --> 01:28:20.718

								At the time you know there was still no selfies being taken and that kind of thing.


								01:28:21.079 --> 01:28:27.547

								And unfortunately at that scientific meeting I had to leave the morning that they took the group picture.


								01:28:28.489 --> 01:28:30.812

								And so I'm not in the group picture which really is


								01:28:31.392 --> 01:28:39.577

								quite disappointing for me because there were like three Nobel Prize winners at that meeting and a lot of people that I still love and respect were at that meeting.


								01:28:39.597 --> 01:28:48.642

								It was just a great moment in my career as a neuroscientist and it was a transition from working in Oslo, Norway to working in Trondheim.


								01:28:48.662 --> 01:28:55.526

								So everybody that was in the Moser lab that was at that meeting, it was my first time meeting all of them and a lot of them would become


								01:28:56.788 --> 01:29:01.460

								Really, you know great friends and actually my middle son is named after one of those guys.


								01:29:01.500 --> 01:29:02.603

								So it's a


								01:29:04.218 --> 01:29:23.110

								It's a really, I loved that time in my life because it really felt like I was a biologist living on the cutting edge of biology, meeting three Nobel Prize winners on one airplane ride to one conference where we were all staying at the same hotel, except for me, because I was staying up the street at a hostel.


								01:29:23.591 --> 01:29:26.693

								And so everybody got a rumor that I was camping there.


								01:29:27.153 --> 01:29:33.577

								And of course camping on Svalbard would mean that you would need to have tripwires around your tent because they have polar bears there.


								01:29:34.097 --> 01:29:38.419

								So the first day that I was at the meeting, everybody was saying, there he is.


								01:29:38.460 --> 01:29:40.941

								That's the guy from Johan Storm's lab.


								01:29:40.981 --> 01:29:42.142

								He's camping here, dude.


								01:29:42.182 --> 01:29:42.962

								He's hardcore.


								01:29:43.362 --> 01:29:51.847

								And so they all came to me and asked me where my rifle was because I had walked into the place without a rifle, but they assumed that I was camping, said I must have a rifle.


								01:29:52.227 --> 01:29:54.629

								And so I was completely confused for like the first,


								01:29:55.169 --> 01:30:01.514

								Half day I was there because I was keeping having to explain to everybody that I wasn't in danger last night and everything would be okay.


								01:30:01.994 --> 01:30:02.754

								It was really funny.


								01:30:02.895 --> 01:30:13.622

								Anyway, I just I can't believe how far this journey has been and how far I've come on it and and the wild and crazy place it has brought me.


								01:30:14.183 --> 01:30:17.445

								I'm just very happy that I have my wife and my family.


								01:30:18.843 --> 01:30:24.866

								and that we're all healthy and still kind of able to laugh about it now after all this awfulness.


								01:30:26.147 --> 01:30:29.048

								So this is a lot of fun for me now.


								01:30:32.230 --> 01:30:34.090

								And then carried it forward.


								01:30:34.371 --> 01:30:39.433

								Many of my discoveries beyond the Nobel Prize were in immunology.


								01:30:42.378 --> 01:30:47.319

								So in 1980, I got a call from Joshua Lederberg.


								01:30:47.379 --> 01:30:50.560

								Josh was then president of the Rockefeller University.


								01:30:52.500 --> 01:30:54.101

								And he was an advisor to Jack Whitehead.


								01:30:54.121 --> 01:30:55.441

								Jack had a series of advisors, wise people.


								01:30:55.461 --> 01:30:56.221

								And he said, do you know about


								01:31:10.359 --> 01:31:10.959

								Mr. Whitehead.


								01:31:10.979 --> 01:31:25.186

								And I said, well, I did know a little bit, because he had once come through Cambridge and had thought about setting up his institute in Cambridge, but had decided not to originally.


								01:31:26.247 --> 01:31:29.168

								And that was in roughly around 75.


								01:31:33.604 --> 01:31:42.948

								He developed the Technicon Corporation, which sold all of the clinical analysis equipment in the world at that time.


								01:31:43.488 --> 01:31:50.871

								It developed these huge machines that could in parallel look at a whole range of parameters, very quantitative.


								01:31:50.891 --> 01:31:51.812

								Who are we talking about?


								01:31:51.832 --> 01:31:52.812

								Is that Jack Whitehead?


								01:31:53.152 --> 01:31:55.854

								And had thought about setting up the Nobel Prize.


								01:31:55.894 --> 01:31:56.694

								We're in immunology.


								01:31:59.614 --> 01:32:04.559

								So in 1980, I got a call from Joshua Lederberg.


								01:32:04.619 --> 01:32:07.783

								Josh was then president of the Rockefeller University.


								01:32:09.725 --> 01:32:13.088

								And he was an advisor to Jack Whitehead.


								01:32:14.009 --> 01:32:17.833

								Jack had a series of advisors, wise people.


								01:32:20.136 --> 01:32:21.917

								And he said, do you know about?


								01:32:22.898 --> 01:32:37.725

								Mr. Whitehead, and I said, well, I did know a little bit, because he had once come through Cambridge and had thought about setting up his institute in Cambridge, but had decided not to originally.


								01:32:38.805 --> 01:32:41.726

								And that was in roughly around 75.


								01:32:46.649 --> 01:32:49.490

								He developed the Technicon Corporation.


								01:32:51.061 --> 01:32:55.484

								which sold all of the clinical analysis equipment in the world at that time.


								01:32:56.045 --> 01:33:03.771

								It developed these huge machines that could in parallel look at a whole range of parameters very quantitatively.


								01:33:05.465 --> 01:33:13.751

								And he'd sold that to, well at the time when I met him first, that is when he came through here, he hadn't yet sold it.


								01:33:15.753 --> 01:33:17.054

								But it had gone public.


								01:33:18.155 --> 01:33:24.099

								And it made him a billionaire, when a billionaire was a very unusual thing.


								01:33:26.681 --> 01:33:30.284

								And so he had made a commitment to spend $135 million


								01:33:32.791 --> 01:33:39.175

								build an institute, which was his form of giving back to the world from which he felt he had derived his fortune.


								01:33:40.916 --> 01:33:49.141

								But he was doing it in a very tax-efficient way that was going to allow him to get all sorts of benefits from it.


								01:33:50.322 --> 01:33:54.564

								So it was a mixed set of motives that he had.


								01:33:54.584 --> 01:34:01.589

								And he finally said he's going to do this at Duke University in somewhere around 75.


								01:34:04.941 --> 01:34:06.942

								And he set it up at Duke.


								01:34:07.503 --> 01:34:09.223

								But he was meddling too much.


								01:34:10.064 --> 01:34:13.426

								Duke had bought a bit of a pig and a poke because of all this money involved.


								01:34:14.626 --> 01:34:18.409

								And they finally splintered, came asunder.


								01:34:19.489 --> 01:34:23.491

								And so he sort of bought them off.


								01:34:23.531 --> 01:34:28.734

								He gave them a fair amount of money and closed down that chapter.


								01:34:28.814 --> 01:34:31.296

								But by this time he had sold the company.


								01:34:33.004 --> 01:34:41.978

								and had no longer these complicated tax reasons to do this, the idea had captured him of building an institute.


								01:34:42.559 --> 01:34:47.045

								And he had been convinced by his advisors, Lederberg and others,


								01:34:48.426 --> 01:34:52.968

								that he should do this in fundamental biology, not in medically oriented biology.


								01:34:52.988 --> 01:35:00.831

								And I think it's interesting to point out here that I know from Mark Kulak's work that Lederberg was also kind of a good friend and advisor to the Sackler family.


								01:35:00.891 --> 01:35:09.155

								So it's interesting that he's advising a lot of extremely rich dudes on what to do with their money in terms of biological things.


								01:35:10.255 --> 01:35:14.317

								Which is the original idea and where he had gone to Duke because of its medical school.


								01:35:16.840 --> 01:35:24.564

								And he was looking around for somebody to be the director and to build this thing, to create it.


								01:35:26.665 --> 01:35:29.326

								And so I got this call from Josh, would you come down and talk to him?


								01:35:30.107 --> 01:35:31.107

								And so I came down.


								01:35:31.127 --> 01:35:33.528

								It was in August of 1980, as I remember.


								01:35:36.110 --> 01:35:44.134

								And he said, if you were going to build an institute like this, or how would you advise me to focus an institute like this?


								01:35:46.334 --> 01:35:57.505

								And Jack later told me that my answer to that question was the first time that he'd asked that question and gotten an answer which was not about the individual's own research.


								01:35:57.785 --> 01:36:09.097

								And I'm going to make the assertion here that actually Joshua Lederberg is the one who told him to give this answer because Joshua Lederberg is the guy who coined the term euphenics.


								01:36:11.212 --> 01:36:14.836

								to be a homologue to eugenics.


								01:36:15.116 --> 01:36:21.203

								Eugenics being the idea of selecting genes in order to make the next generation better.


								01:36:21.884 --> 01:36:33.016

								Euthenics would be the selection of developmental processes and developmental choices that optimize the expression of a particular genome.


								01:36:33.536 --> 01:36:35.297

								It's kind of the flip side of the coin.


								01:36:35.337 --> 01:36:45.883

								If you believe that there's a genome, you also have to understand that there is a, that it codes for a pattern integrity with a trajectory across time and that trajectory could be optimized.


								01:36:47.624 --> 01:36:54.829

								And we're not even thinking about how that trajectory even manifests, never mind could be optimized by environmental conditions, et cetera.


								01:36:55.249 --> 01:37:01.973

								And so Joshua Lederberg was intimately aware of that to the extent to which he even coined a word, you know, like microbiome.


								01:37:05.776 --> 01:37:15.919

								And so it's very curious that he says he was called by Joshua Lederberg, Joshua Lederberg encouraged him to imply, and then his answer was very Joshua Lederberg-esque.


								01:37:16.019 --> 01:37:16.819

								Listen carefully.


								01:37:17.580 --> 01:37:21.121

								I didn't say I would build an immunology institute or a virology institute.


								01:37:22.290 --> 01:37:29.257

								I looked at the currents in biology of the time and said... The currents of biology in the time.


								01:37:29.317 --> 01:37:42.431

								Don't forget that he told you earlier that Swarthmore biology was kind of an old biology, like an 1800s biology program because they were working on embryology and development.


								01:37:45.885 --> 01:37:49.948

								But then he got a call from Joshua Lederberg and apparently development was really important.


								01:37:50.388 --> 01:37:52.810

								That I build an institute focused on developmental biology.


								01:37:54.010 --> 01:38:02.736

								Because developmental biology was then in a, in a, uh, sort of on a takeoff platform of understanding.


								01:38:02.996 --> 01:38:06.218

								And there was lots to be done and lots of good people, lots of good trainees.


								01:38:07.079 --> 01:38:11.802

								Uh, this was a... I guess Swarthmore was in the perfect position to kick some ass at this time, huh?


								01:38:13.183 --> 01:38:14.064

								Something you could really do.


								01:38:16.198 --> 01:38:28.984

								And Jack was very impressed that I didn't tell him, I didn't ask him for the money so that I could do my own work, that I was really looking at it from a sort of global perspective.


								01:38:31.265 --> 01:38:36.328

								So I got a call back from him not long after that interview and he said, would you consider being director?


								01:38:37.742 --> 01:38:41.805

								And I spent a little while thinking about that, talking to the family and whatever else.


								01:38:41.885 --> 01:38:46.529

								And now imagine if Joshua Lederberg's the one who told him to answer that question like that.


								01:38:46.609 --> 01:38:47.970

								Now, what does he owe Josh?


								01:38:49.231 --> 01:38:53.534

								How much influence does Josh have over our boy David Baltimore?


								01:38:55.976 --> 01:39:02.340

								And said, I was willing to sign on as an advisor to him


								01:39:05.862 --> 01:39:12.308

								And I would then create or try to find the conditions to create the Institute.


								01:39:13.509 --> 01:39:20.756

								And if I could create it in a form in which I was excited by it, then I would be director.


								01:39:23.759 --> 01:39:30.445

								And behind that, and Jack recognized that, was a view


								01:39:32.165 --> 01:39:33.688

								MIT was the place for this.


								01:39:34.429 --> 01:39:35.851

								He had not thought of MIT.


								01:39:36.212 --> 01:39:47.369

								He was still focused either in the Ivy League or in schools that had medical schools, Stanford, although Rockefeller was on his list because Josh was from Rome.


								01:39:49.437 --> 01:39:55.763

								So he said, but you have to do a serious consideration of the venue for it.


								01:39:56.924 --> 01:39:57.664

								And I said I would.


								01:39:58.245 --> 01:40:03.629

								And so I talked to people at Stanford, and I talked to people at Harvard, and I talked to people at Rockefeller and elsewhere.


								01:40:05.972 --> 01:40:08.574

								And it became clear that


								01:40:09.764 --> 01:40:10.385

								at MIT.


								01:40:11.105 --> 01:40:21.352

								And it became clear that, first of all, I could do it at MIT, but it was going to take a lot of political work, because it was some just totally brand new concept.


								01:40:21.392 --> 01:40:22.693

								I'll tell you about the concept in a minute.


								01:40:26.096 --> 01:40:36.003

								That perhaps we could do it at Stanford, because Don Kennedy was then president of Stanford and saw the attraction, actually knew Jack.


								01:40:38.174 --> 01:40:43.062

								They probably couldn't do it at Rockefeller because the faculty at Rockefeller would never do anything new.


								01:40:45.957 --> 01:40:51.040

								And that you could do it at Harvard Medical School as easily as anywhere else in the world.


								01:40:52.581 --> 01:40:53.182

								Just easily.


								01:40:53.622 --> 01:40:59.946

								Because Harvard was already an institution, the medical school in particular, built out of various independent elements.


								01:41:00.706 --> 01:41:05.690

								Mass General, Brigham and Women's, whatever, Dana-Farber.


								01:41:06.810 --> 01:41:10.753

								And so another institution, they were all set up for it.


								01:41:13.032 --> 01:41:13.673

								MIT was not.


								01:41:14.835 --> 01:41:22.988

								The ground rules of this from Jack's side were this has to be an independent institution with its own board of directors and its own finances.


								01:41:25.342 --> 01:41:31.565

								And what I said was, fine, but it has to be allied with a major center.


								01:41:31.705 --> 01:41:38.068

								And Jack already knew that because he knew that $135 million, $35 million was built.


								01:41:38.088 --> 01:41:53.176

								So are we supposed to believe that up until this point, he just led a lab about RNA viruses working on polio, and now he's going to lead a national institute funded to the tune of millions and millions of dollars from one of the few billionaires in America?


								01:41:54.400 --> 01:41:58.423

								And we're supposed to believe that that just happened because Joshua Lederberg gave him a call?


								01:41:59.745 --> 01:42:03.408

								Joshua Lederberg, the guy who writes, like, reviews about bioweapons?


								01:42:04.208 --> 01:42:10.013

								Back then, he's already working for the government and sitting in on advisory committees to the president?


								01:42:11.374 --> 01:42:11.675

								Really?


								01:42:11.695 --> 01:42:13.736

								That Joshua Lederberg called him?


								01:42:13.756 --> 01:42:21.683

								The $100 million endowment was simply not enough to build a totally freestanding institution.


								01:42:24.893 --> 01:42:31.760

								And so I then went into this negotiation phase, said to Jack, I think MIT is the right answer.


								01:42:33.482 --> 01:42:37.506

								He said, well, you started off feeling that way, so it's not a surprise you came up with that answer.


								01:42:37.666 --> 01:42:40.789

								I admitted that I had a predilection to MIT because


								01:42:41.830 --> 01:42:47.497

								I felt that I knew how MIT could provide quality control for the institution.


								01:42:48.398 --> 01:42:54.065

								And quality control was the most important thing that you would get by alliance with a major institution.


								01:42:54.886 --> 01:42:56.648

								And that was easy to see.


								01:42:57.189 --> 01:43:00.372

								Because we'd make all of the faculty members of the biology department.


								01:43:01.153 --> 01:43:05.997

								And then they'd have to fit the same criteria as any other member of the biology department.


								01:43:06.577 --> 01:43:12.222

								One thing MIT knew how to do very well was to find the very best people in biology and bring them to the institution.


								01:43:14.323 --> 01:43:22.590

								So that made the Whitehead Institute a sort of arm of the larger biology effort at MIT, and that was great.


								01:43:23.837 --> 01:43:28.420

								We'd done that with the Cancer Center, but the Cancer Center was not an independent institution.


								01:43:28.440 --> 01:43:30.121

								It didn't have its own board or finances.


								01:43:30.601 --> 01:43:33.263

								It was a center of MIT.


								01:43:33.703 --> 01:43:35.124

								Here we were trying to do something new.


								01:43:36.225 --> 01:43:37.926

								That ran into a buzzsaw.


								01:43:39.487 --> 01:43:45.891

								And it was made worse by the fact that it was played up by the Boston Globe.


								01:43:47.272 --> 01:43:53.756

								as a takeover of MIT biology by this financier, Whitehead.


								01:43:56.618 --> 01:43:58.580

								There were also some political currents.


								01:43:58.660 --> 01:44:16.111

								There was, in particular, a very strong socialist-oriented faculty member in political science, whose name I now forget, who said this was a corporate takeover of MIT.


								01:44:18.552 --> 01:44:24.585

								And so it became an embarrassment in the newspapers.


								01:44:25.266 --> 01:44:28.734

								It became a cause celeb on campus.


								01:44:30.541 --> 01:44:38.065

								And we were trying to take it through the faculty and get a faculty vote to agree to this unique situation for MIT.


								01:44:38.105 --> 01:44:44.428

								Because MIT had never formally affiliated with another organization before.


								01:44:44.608 --> 01:44:47.669

								MIT had different schools, School of Science, School of Engineering, whatever.


								01:44:48.510 --> 01:44:49.610

								But that's as far as it went.


								01:44:49.690 --> 01:44:52.732

								Everything was part of one faculty.


								01:44:55.686 --> 01:45:03.388

								And they felt that I was going to get too much power as director in dictating who was getting hired at MIT.


								01:45:04.208 --> 01:45:12.050

								Of course, I'd set this up so that, in fact, the director wouldn't have that power because the biology department would be centrally involved in every appointment.


								01:45:12.710 --> 01:45:16.811

								But people were worried.


								01:45:17.671 --> 01:45:17.891

								New.


								01:45:18.451 --> 01:45:21.672

								New at universities is often very hard to sell.


								01:45:24.908 --> 01:45:27.689

								So we had a stormy period of a year.


								01:45:27.709 --> 01:45:39.895

								I just find it remarkable that a guy whose career is based on life-changing, science-changing, seminal discoveries hasn't told us about a single one of them in any context at all.


								01:45:40.936 --> 01:45:45.778

								Hasn't told us about one life-changing moment with any details that really mean anything.


								01:45:47.042 --> 01:45:49.803

								He just went to summer camp, and that changed his life forever.


								01:45:49.923 --> 01:45:52.123

								Then he met some people, and that changed his life.


								01:45:52.163 --> 01:45:53.583

								And he discovered things.


								01:45:53.623 --> 01:45:54.544

								It was pretty easy.


								01:45:55.004 --> 01:45:57.184

								And then he went to Stockholm and accepted the prize.


								01:45:57.544 --> 01:45:58.985

								It's just kind of how it happened.


								01:46:01.185 --> 01:46:03.205

								He got a call from Joshua Lederberg.


								01:46:03.245 --> 01:46:04.426

								He gave the right answer.


								01:46:04.486 --> 01:46:07.146

								The next thing you know, he's starting the Whitehead Institute.


								01:46:07.186 --> 01:46:07.986

								Why not, right?


								01:46:08.226 --> 01:46:08.947

								It makes sense.


								01:46:09.487 --> 01:46:11.747

								He just keeps falling face first into the butter.


								01:46:17.088 --> 01:46:20.951

								negotiation, and finally a vote in the faculty.


								01:46:20.991 --> 01:46:22.753

								And the faculty finally voted in favor of it.


								01:46:22.773 --> 01:46:24.874

								INTERVIEWER 1 What do you think convinced them?


								01:46:25.255 --> 01:46:39.326

								INGRAHAM I think, why do we need so much history about how they voted on the Whitehead Institute if the Whitehead Institute ended up to be some kind of new model for how science was done with all kinds of seminal discoveries as the result of the investment?


								01:46:40.107 --> 01:46:45.431

								Why would you spend so much time on that story if you weren't running out the clock on this interview in the first place?


								01:46:47.250 --> 01:46:51.155

								This is like looking through a stuffed animal trying to find the internal organs.


								01:46:51.315 --> 01:46:52.457

								There's nothing here.


								01:46:53.638 --> 01:46:57.723

								Ultimately, MIT is a risk-taking institution.


								01:46:59.065 --> 01:47:04.192

								It takes a long time to get to that point, and they had to be convinced that


								01:47:05.970 --> 01:47:17.601

								That we thought through every question, but there was no question that anybody could ask in the faculty meeting, for instance, that we couldn't answer, that we hadn't thought through, that we didn't have an answer to.


								01:47:18.410 --> 01:47:20.532

								And so it was a very important time.


								01:47:20.572 --> 01:47:24.556

								Because initially, when I was putting this thing together, I couldn't have answered a lot of questions.


								01:47:25.197 --> 01:47:31.984

								But by the time it came to that vote, every question had come up and debated in the biology department.


								01:47:32.104 --> 01:47:35.747

								I'd had some real skeptics in biology.


								01:47:37.309 --> 01:47:38.550

								And had to convince them.


								01:47:38.950 --> 01:47:51.642

								And finally Boris Magasanik was the most important skeptic who turned around and said, I'm convinced that we've put in place all of the things that will make this a success for MIT and for itself.


								01:47:54.124 --> 01:47:56.226

								Howard Johnson played a very important role.


								01:47:56.286 --> 01:47:58.868

								Howard was, at that point, chairman of the board.


								01:48:01.050 --> 01:48:07.254

								And he said, from the first time I met him and described it, he said, we have to do this.


								01:48:07.274 --> 01:48:11.097

								INTERVIEWERS It's someone from MIT that's interviewing him.


								01:48:11.117 --> 01:48:16.041

								SKOLNIKOFF And he helped me politically and was terrific about it.


								01:48:17.682 --> 01:48:18.923

								Paul Gray, who was president, was


								01:48:21.966 --> 01:48:26.469

								little uncertain because he was being torn from various sides by various factions.


								01:48:27.369 --> 01:48:30.411

								I could understand more.


								01:48:30.431 --> 01:48:40.697

								INTERVIEWER 1 So from your years as director of the Whitehead Institute, what accomplishments are you most proud of?


								01:48:40.717 --> 01:48:46.061

								WILCZEK Oh, I'm most proud of the Whitehead Institute as an institution.


								01:48:49.904 --> 01:48:58.030

								A year after we opened its doors, it was known as one of the premier biological research venues in the world.


								01:48:59.692 --> 01:49:03.334

								Because we'd aggregated this remarkable group of people.


								01:49:04.575 --> 01:49:07.558

								And their impact was instantaneous, really.


								01:49:09.403 --> 01:49:12.264

								Jerry Fink, Harvey Lodish, Bob Weinberg.


								01:49:15.604 --> 01:49:24.126

								And then we developed a, in terms of programs, I'm most proud of the Fellows Program.


								01:49:25.487 --> 01:49:35.889

								Because I said one of the things, I said this very early on, that one of the things I wanted to see us do was to find another track for the development of young people.


								01:49:37.692 --> 01:49:42.754

								The standard track is you go to graduate school, you do a post-doc, and you get a faculty position.


								01:49:44.234 --> 01:49:52.017

								There's no place in there for somebody who has the strength of independent thinking.


								01:49:52.257 --> 01:49:55.058

								I love that.


								01:49:55.338 --> 01:49:57.459

								Heroic stories in bureaucracy.


								01:49:57.499 --> 01:49:58.499

								That's fantastic.


								01:49:58.679 --> 01:49:59.980

								Full trappings of faculty.


								01:50:00.000 --> 01:50:01.240

								That could be a band name.


								01:50:01.821 --> 01:50:02.761

								Committees and all of that.


								01:50:04.522 --> 01:50:08.323

								And so I set up that track as a Fellow of the Institute.


								01:50:09.864 --> 01:50:13.725

								And we had seven slots for that.


								01:50:14.025 --> 01:50:23.068

								And some of the very best people in America today, in the world, and scientists came through as Fellows.


								01:50:25.327 --> 01:50:28.869

								And it turned out to be a proving ground for young faculty at Whitehead, too.


								01:50:29.269 --> 01:50:30.529

								I didn't want it to be that.


								01:50:30.629 --> 01:50:33.070

								We, in fact, said we were not going to hire these people.


								01:50:33.451 --> 01:50:37.792

								But then they were so good and so wonderful that we could not hire them.


								01:50:38.833 --> 01:50:53.279

								And so we hired David Page, who is now the director of Whitehead, and Peter Kim, who's the research director at Merck Corporation, and lots of others.


								01:50:55.117 --> 01:50:55.778

								No slouches?


								01:50:56.578 --> 01:50:57.499

								Oh, we had a slouch or two.


								01:50:59.400 --> 01:51:01.442

								Why don't we talk first about the Cancer Center?


								01:51:01.842 --> 01:51:03.764

								Okay.


								01:51:07.626 --> 01:51:10.829

								Why don't you talk a little bit about your involvement and its importance?


								01:51:13.457 --> 01:51:15.799

								This again takes us back to Salvador Luria.


								01:51:16.520 --> 01:51:24.646

								Don't forget that Robert Malone also set up a cancer center at the Winbur Institute, which is still being talked about in the news today.


								01:51:25.607 --> 01:51:26.387

								Luria in 1970, 71.


								01:51:32.632 --> 01:51:36.015

								Robert Malone being this advisor to Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								01:51:36.095 --> 01:51:46.184

								and the anti-vax, fake anti-vax movement in America, one of the probably longtime advisors of Merrill Nass and advisors to Brian Hooker as well.


								01:51:48.707 --> 01:51:51.129

								Realized that there was going to be a National Cancer Act.


								01:51:52.341 --> 01:51:56.624

								and that that was going to provide money for building cancer centers.


								01:51:58.085 --> 01:51:59.987

								And so he came to me.


								01:52:00.047 --> 01:52:05.991

								I was the only one working on cancer at MIT at the time, at least the only one I know about.


								01:52:07.832 --> 01:52:13.657

								And said, actually, there were probably some people in food science, but they weren't part of the effort.


								01:52:17.463 --> 01:52:22.005

								He said, are you up for developing a cancer center here?


								01:52:22.125 --> 01:52:34.370

								And it was very exciting to me because it would really increase my capabilities as well as providing a group of colleagues, interesting colleagues to work with.


								01:52:36.090 --> 01:52:43.696

								And he went then to Jerry Wiesner, who was president, and said, I think we should develop this center.


								01:52:44.156 --> 01:52:45.957

								And Jerry was just terrific.


								01:52:46.017 --> 01:52:47.078

								He was very supportive.


								01:52:47.138 --> 01:52:50.500

								He understood the trends in biology.


								01:52:51.101 --> 01:52:52.361

								He was always near biology.


								01:52:53.662 --> 01:53:01.207

								And Rosenblith, who was provost at the time, I guess, and who worked in biology.


								01:53:05.451 --> 01:53:08.905

								We got the blessings of the administration and went forward.


								01:53:10.478 --> 01:53:23.621

								And this was the only designated specialized cancer center in the country that wasn't connected to a medical school, that was just freestanding research in the fundamentals of cancer.


								01:53:24.481 --> 01:53:34.123

								And arguably, we have made more contribution to modern cancer understanding than any other institution by keeping our focus on basic issues.


								01:53:35.244 --> 01:53:36.224

								And of course, now this is


								01:53:37.847 --> 01:53:49.049

								malooned out into the Koch Institute, which brings together cancer research scientists and engineers in the same brand new building that will be occupied a little later this year.


								01:53:50.170 --> 01:53:52.590

								Why don't you rattle off a couple of the contributions?


								01:53:53.310 --> 01:53:55.731

								The Koch Institute.


								01:53:55.751 --> 01:53:57.651

								So this is in 2015, remember?


								01:53:57.931 --> 01:54:00.132

								Phil Sharpe's discovery of splicing.


								01:54:00.872 --> 01:54:01.732

								Phil Sharpe.


								01:54:01.872 --> 01:54:03.913

								Without that, we would not understand


								01:54:05.353 --> 01:54:08.257

								how mammalian cells process their information.


								01:54:08.737 --> 01:54:13.102

								So interesting because Susumu Tonigawa was also talking about splicing, right?


								01:54:13.342 --> 01:54:22.293

								And specifically how variability in the protein that results can be created through splicing and somatic mutation.


								01:54:22.333 --> 01:54:23.534

								And so that process


								01:54:25.236 --> 01:54:28.597

								Just to cite Sharpe is really very, very interesting.


								01:54:29.118 --> 01:54:30.278

								It's a very interesting guy.


								01:54:30.338 --> 01:54:35.301

								Great page on Philip Sharpe can be found at the Housatonic Archive at Housatonic Live.


								01:54:35.321 --> 01:54:36.862

								Don't forget.


								01:54:36.882 --> 01:54:42.125

								It was as fundamental a discovery as anything made ever in molecular biology.


								01:54:44.346 --> 01:54:46.107

								Bob Weinberg's discovery that


								01:54:50.100 --> 01:54:52.261

								Cancer was a genetic disease fundamentally.


								01:54:52.281 --> 01:54:59.203

								I mean, he showed that when you transform a cell with a chemical, that the chemical actually hits an oncogene.


								01:54:59.563 --> 01:55:04.445

								And we knew about oncogenes from work on viruses, but we knew nothing about them in cells.


								01:55:04.725 --> 01:55:07.326

								So that's the second time he's used the word transform.


								01:55:08.827 --> 01:55:11.429

								And of course, transform is the same as transfect.


								01:55:11.469 --> 01:55:26.882

								It's the same family of verbs, but transfect usually refers to naked DNA or RNA that is applied to a cell, whereas transform really means that the genome or the DNA is really inscribed and can be passed along.


								01:55:27.462 --> 01:55:28.443

								after cell division.


								01:55:28.483 --> 01:55:34.908

								So again, he's using the terms that I suggest to you are terms that should have been used from the beginning of the pandemic.


								01:55:34.968 --> 01:55:42.674

								And it's suggested to you for six years, are the reason why I was fired from the University of Pittsburgh, and no one has ever disputed that fact.


								01:55:43.694 --> 01:55:53.822

								And here we have the one of the godfathers of molecular medicine or molecular biology telling us in using that vocabulary very precisely, accurately, exactly as I have.


								01:55:56.516 --> 01:56:01.538

								a discovery for which I still believe he should have won the Nobel Prize, but he's won everything else but.


								01:56:05.659 --> 01:56:21.285

								And I think the work that we did on Abelson virus, which set the basis for making Gleevec, and taught us a lot about the development of the immune system at the same time, was important.


								01:56:22.986 --> 01:56:25.908

								It is remarkable how he's just not saying anything.


								01:56:39.119 --> 01:56:48.222

								If these people made remarkable discoveries, you would say things like I would say things that, you know, John O'Keefe discovered place cells.


								01:56:48.262 --> 01:56:56.104

								And for the first time, we had neurons that fired in patterns that seemed to correlate with locations in space and in time.


								01:56:56.164 --> 01:56:58.685

								And so it was a pretty remarkable discovery.


								01:56:58.745 --> 01:57:04.387

								And this model has been used, this model system has been used as a probe to brain function


								01:57:04.927 --> 01:57:07.509

								for the decades after his initial discoveries.


								01:57:07.889 --> 01:57:11.171

								You can say that if you know what somebody has discovered.


								01:57:13.633 --> 01:57:14.733

								You can just say it.


								01:57:15.674 --> 01:57:23.879

								And even if they haven't discovered anything, you can say what they're interested in thinking about, especially if you were the head of their department and hired them based on that.


								01:57:24.920 --> 01:57:30.744

								And yet the paucity of details here really suggests that this man is full of shit.


								01:57:31.834 --> 01:57:32.855

								It's unbelievable.


								01:57:32.895 --> 01:57:36.117

								He is a national security actor without a doubt.


								01:57:39.039 --> 01:57:42.321

								We were the fifth floor of the Cancer Center, the group that I've just told you about.


								01:57:42.441 --> 01:57:47.285

								Weinberg, Sharp, me and Nancy and David Hausman.


								01:57:48.946 --> 01:57:49.386

								Not bad.


								01:57:50.667 --> 01:57:52.228

								And then it was cell biology downstairs.


								01:57:52.328 --> 01:57:53.769

								Hines and Solomon.


								01:57:55.550 --> 01:57:57.752

								and immunology harmonized and came here.


								01:57:58.373 --> 01:58:19.353

								And how many of those needed to be scripted actors, national security state actors that were either performing for the national security state or executing experiments that were directed by the national security state, and therefore making discoveries that would be framed in the context of the national security state narrative, which would primarily be


								01:58:21.308 --> 01:58:37.534

								that all of these really special enzymes that go against the central dogma are all outside of us, could never be a part of our own irreducible complexity, but are part of these things we call viruses and are the exclusive purview of virology departments.


								01:58:44.214 --> 01:59:04.545

								and set up a fabulous immunology program, Susumu Togawa, who did such important work in immunology, and he didn't actually do his Nobel-winning experiment here, but he came here and developed that, and then moved himself into neurobiology, where he has been so important.


								01:59:09.002 --> 01:59:18.510

								There was, I don't know if it had anything to do with being director of the Whitehead Institute, but you developed an interest in administration.


								01:59:18.530 --> 01:59:18.950

								Right.


								01:59:19.711 --> 01:59:23.033

								And wound up going to Rockefeller as president.


								01:59:23.113 --> 01:59:27.397

								Can you talk a little about the appeal of administration?


								01:59:29.218 --> 01:59:36.284

								Well, I got just a lot of positive personal feedback from developing the Whitehead Institute.


								01:59:37.643 --> 01:59:40.326

								I love being the HNIC.


								01:59:40.706 --> 01:59:41.547

								That's what he likes.


								01:59:41.607 --> 01:59:43.589

								He really likes to be the HNIC.


								01:59:43.649 --> 01:59:44.350

								That's what he likes.


								01:59:44.370 --> 01:59:45.772

								It's a lot of work.


								01:59:46.853 --> 01:59:47.814

								It's a lot of detail.


								01:59:48.655 --> 01:59:51.778

								But it's mind expanding too.


								01:59:52.939 --> 02:00:03.802

								begin to understand the full range of an institution and all of the kinds of problems that go into maintaining it, the requirements for excellence.


								02:00:04.102 --> 02:00:08.283

								That's a Morgan Freeman reference to a movie where he was a principal.


								02:00:09.103 --> 02:00:13.784

								And what that takes, both financially and in terms of people.


								02:00:15.745 --> 02:00:21.306

								And so, I felt I had these capabilities and


								02:00:23.192 --> 02:00:27.296

								that in a sense I owed it to the biological.


								02:00:27.796 --> 02:00:31.620

								It is absolutely an admission that he is an administrator.


								02:00:31.680 --> 02:00:41.349

								He never did any science and if he did it, he did it because he had to in order to keep the lid on the secret, to fake the data, to fake the discovery and control the idea.


								02:00:41.549 --> 02:00:44.532

								To exercise those skills that I had developed.


								02:00:45.658 --> 02:00:47.098

								And there is a thrill.


								02:00:47.118 --> 02:00:49.199

								What about the skills that your wife developed?


								02:00:49.259 --> 02:00:50.239

								It's really weird.


								02:00:50.279 --> 02:00:55.540

								It's like all these guys have a wife that's actually also a scientist and made lots of discoveries.


								02:00:55.660 --> 02:00:58.660

								Like Hilary Koprowski's wife is a virologist.


								02:00:58.720 --> 02:01:00.981

								Lederberg's wife is a cell culture lady.


								02:01:01.741 --> 02:01:07.002

								The next door neighbor of Henry Kissinger is like responsible for all the cell cultures of all these people.


								02:01:07.062 --> 02:01:10.282

								It's all strange, like unnamed women.


								02:01:11.623 --> 02:01:12.763

								About, um,


								02:01:13.963 --> 02:01:22.626

								shaping an institution and maintaining its, developing its excellence or maintaining its excellence.


								02:01:22.706 --> 02:01:34.049

								And so when I was approached literally by David Rockefeller to head the Rockefeller Institute, then now Rockefeller University, and


								02:01:36.829 --> 02:01:40.172

								I had graduated from there, and so I had a feeling.


								02:01:40.212 --> 02:01:42.814

								I don't know if you can hear it, but the coughing is actually there.


								02:01:42.894 --> 02:01:45.375

								It's not at my house or in the garden.


								02:01:45.436 --> 02:01:47.817

								It's somewhere in the background of that video.


								02:01:47.997 --> 02:01:53.602

								For the institution, and I thought the institution could be doing a lot more than it was doing.


								02:01:54.803 --> 02:01:58.305

								And so there was an opportunity for growth and reshaping there.


								02:01:59.126 --> 02:02:01.388

								I accepted the job.


								02:02:02.628 --> 02:02:03.349

								I love New York.


								02:02:03.869 --> 02:02:05.030

								I always did love New York.


								02:02:05.431 --> 02:02:07.492

								So going to New York to me was a thrill.


								02:02:09.894 --> 02:02:10.694

								And for my wife.


								02:02:11.535 --> 02:02:19.541

								Our kid had just gone off to Andover and so whether we were in New York or Boston didn't matter a whole lot.


								02:02:19.601 --> 02:02:22.883

								She actually ended up becoming a denizen of New York.


								02:02:22.923 --> 02:02:23.684

								She still lives there.


								02:02:24.104 --> 02:02:27.347

								So you didn't mind spending less time in the lab at that point?


								02:02:29.251 --> 02:02:29.751

								I didn't.


								02:02:30.712 --> 02:02:33.594

								I moved my lab to Rockefeller.


								02:02:35.616 --> 02:02:43.762

								And gave up on RNA viruses, you see, because the discoveries were made, the truth was established, and now there's no reason to test it anymore.


								02:02:43.882 --> 02:02:45.303

								Don't make any mistakes here.


								02:02:47.607 --> 02:02:50.249

								stages, so I kept it here for a while and then moved it down.


								02:02:51.190 --> 02:02:52.971

								And I had some very good people.


								02:02:53.011 --> 02:02:55.814

								I got a few more really terrific people at Rockefeller.


								02:02:56.994 --> 02:03:07.123

								And I learned how to interact with a lab on an intermittent basis to still continue to be an effective leader, but spend a lot less time at it.


								02:03:07.964 --> 02:03:13.008

								And the funny thing about developing young talent, which is what a laboratory is about,


								02:03:14.273 --> 02:03:21.397

								is that what I call benign neglect is about as good a way of training people as any.


								02:03:21.437 --> 02:03:23.578

								Because then they have to make their own decisions and live with them.


								02:03:23.758 --> 02:03:28.901

								And they think them through and that makes them very powerful people when they leave the lab.


								02:03:29.461 --> 02:03:31.823

								because they haven't been coddled along the way.


								02:03:31.883 --> 02:03:38.667

								They've had to act as independent scientists through that training period with me, anyway.


								02:03:39.607 --> 02:03:45.851

								And I think it's one of the reasons why the people who come out of my lab have been so successful.


								02:03:45.871 --> 02:03:49.073

								INTERVIEWER 1 A lot of managers don't know that lesson, though.


								02:03:50.234 --> 02:03:55.537

								INTERVIEWER 2 Well, you either believe it and prove the myth, or you fail in his lab.


								02:03:55.597 --> 02:03:56.878

								I'm sure that's what happened, right?


								02:03:56.918 --> 02:03:58.159

								I mean, I know that.


								02:03:59.642 --> 02:04:06.346

								So I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but I think we have to talk about the Imanishi Carry.


								02:04:06.687 --> 02:04:09.969

								So summarize it.


								02:04:10.449 --> 02:04:12.010

								You know what I'm particularly interested in?


								02:04:12.030 --> 02:04:17.694

								I'm wondering if now that time has passed, whether you have a sense of what it was really all about.


								02:04:19.099 --> 02:04:22.101

								No, I had a sense then of what it was about and I haven't changed my mind.


								02:04:22.841 --> 02:04:25.323

								And it was about political power.


								02:04:26.163 --> 02:04:33.828

								It was about John Dingell and the way he could exercise unilateral political power in the U.S.


								02:04:34.168 --> 02:04:40.272

								House of Representatives through his stewardship of the Energy and Commerce Committee.


								02:04:42.176 --> 02:04:44.077

								He was a bulldog.


								02:04:44.477 --> 02:04:45.217

								He was a bully.


								02:04:47.118 --> 02:05:03.063

								He was out to aggrandize himself as the center focus of the Congress, and he was using this particular controversy to prove that NIH didn't know how to govern itself and therefore had to answer to him.


								02:05:04.847 --> 02:05:07.188

								And it was awful.


								02:05:09.588 --> 02:05:22.571

								When I talked to members of the MIT Corporation about it, many of them said, we have been in the same situation in relation to John Dingell, but because we were public corporations, we couldn't stand up to him.


								02:05:24.231 --> 02:05:26.091

								I could stand up to him and did.


								02:05:27.472 --> 02:05:33.033

								And I paid a heavy price for that, but I'm proud that I did it.


								02:05:33.797 --> 02:05:37.778

								Wow, I'm very curious how much I believe that.


								02:05:37.838 --> 02:05:38.938

								I don't know.


								02:05:39.778 --> 02:05:44.279

								But more important, I stood up for some principles that were important and that he was not.


								02:05:44.359 --> 02:05:49.140

								That feels a lot like a Fauci-Rand Paul orchestration to me.


								02:05:49.480 --> 02:05:51.201

								Oh boy, I'm very interested.


								02:05:51.481 --> 02:05:54.581

								Going to be the arbiter of how science was done.


								02:05:56.542 --> 02:05:57.382

								No more details.


								02:05:59.798 --> 02:06:00.419

								That's it.


								02:06:02.420 --> 02:06:10.587

								You've written a lot about ethics and about who should be in positions to judge science subsequently.


								02:06:10.607 --> 02:06:15.492

								Do you want to sort of summarize your position on that?


								02:06:16.516 --> 02:06:24.098

								Well, I haven't actually written much about that or even thought about it in now 15 years.


								02:06:25.578 --> 02:06:32.540

								That was all sort of over in 1995, I guess it was, 96.


								02:06:33.080 --> 02:06:42.843

								And I did write a little after that, but certainly in the last 10 years I haven't thought about a lot.


								02:06:45.026 --> 02:06:48.989

								There's no question who should judge science.


								02:06:49.069 --> 02:06:51.430

								Other scientists are the only ones who can judge science.


								02:06:52.951 --> 02:07:00.296

								Because science as it is happening is very technical, very complicated, very tentative.


								02:07:00.696 --> 02:07:10.523

								And so all you need to do is control the people that specialize in a field, and a field can be falsified, faked, and maintained.


								02:07:12.409 --> 02:07:19.191

								And that, of course, goes against everything that I know about science and knowledge.


								02:07:19.251 --> 02:07:26.234

								That if you're not a master of something until you can explain it simply as a truth, then this is just ridiculous.


								02:07:27.975 --> 02:07:30.676

								It's absolutely absurd what he's saying here.


								02:07:30.696 --> 02:07:33.477

								15 years before the pandemic?


								02:07:33.777 --> 02:07:35.277

								10 years before the pandemic?


								02:07:35.977 --> 02:07:37.018

								I mean, this is nuts.


								02:07:37.718 --> 02:07:38.278

								When was this?


								02:07:38.318 --> 02:07:38.839

								I think this is 2015.


								02:07:42.959 --> 02:07:44.501

								No, it was 2010, wasn't it?


								02:07:44.521 --> 02:07:46.223

								We'll go in the beginning and figure it out.


								02:07:46.664 --> 02:07:52.872

								If you look at it from the outside, the uncertainty and the tentativeness of it doesn't come through.


								02:07:52.912 --> 02:07:53.392

								It can't.


								02:07:53.973 --> 02:07:55.195

								People are looking for certainties.


								02:07:57.579 --> 02:08:01.901

								And there are, in the larger sense, no certainties in science.


								02:08:02.341 --> 02:08:10.305

								But certainly in the smaller sense, when things are really going on, when they're being argued in the journals, there is no certainty.


								02:08:11.245 --> 02:08:15.728

								And coming in from the outside and trying to arbitrate that is just an impossibility.


								02:08:16.607 --> 02:08:26.258

								So the peer review system, which is the core of American evaluation of science, is the right way to do things.


								02:08:26.978 --> 02:08:30.102

								And in a deep sense, the only way to do things.


								02:08:33.879 --> 02:08:39.223

								This is probably a good time to ask about the work you've done on science policy in Washington.


								02:08:39.243 --> 02:08:40.124

								Interesting.


								02:08:40.344 --> 02:08:41.826

								Wow.


								02:08:41.846 --> 02:08:51.474

								So the link that Housatonic Live put in the chat reveals that Emashi Kari co-authored a scientific paper on immunology with David Baltimore.


								02:08:51.494 --> 02:08:54.617

								The paper published in the scientific journal Cell, which is really good.


								02:08:55.558 --> 02:09:01.348

								showed unexpected results on how the immune system rearranges its genes to produce antibodies against antigens.


								02:09:01.388 --> 02:09:04.553

								Of course, Susumu Tonigawa's discovery.


								02:09:06.454 --> 02:09:17.498

								And so interestingly, Margaret O'Toole, a researcher in Ishmani Kari's lab, claimed she could not reproduce some of the experiments in the paper and accused Imani Kashi Kari of fabricating the data.


								02:09:17.558 --> 02:09:19.679

								Since the research had been funded by the U.S.


								02:09:19.719 --> 02:09:23.040

								federal government through National Institutes of Health, the matter was taken up by the U.S.


								02:09:23.100 --> 02:09:27.642

								Congress, where it was aggressively pursued by, among others, Representative Dingell.


								02:09:27.782 --> 02:09:28.542

								Wow.


								02:09:29.382 --> 02:09:36.365

								Wow, and then accused her of falsifying the data and barred her from receiving grants for 10 years.


								02:09:36.885 --> 02:09:41.628

								She sounds like a weird kind of Judy Mikovits kind of, wow.


								02:09:41.708 --> 02:09:49.031

								And it's not, it's not the supervisor's fault because he leaves people alone in his lab to do their own thing.


								02:09:49.091 --> 02:09:53.613

								And that's kind of like nurturing them without nurturing them or something like that.


								02:09:53.653 --> 02:09:54.753

								He just said that.


								02:09:55.253 --> 02:09:56.114

								Holy shit.


								02:09:56.194 --> 02:09:56.814

								Nice work.


								02:09:57.254 --> 02:09:58.415

								Housatonic lives.


								02:09:59.625 --> 02:10:02.867

								particularly around the search for an AIDS vaccine.


								02:10:04.848 --> 02:10:06.228

								The AIDS vaccine?


								02:10:06.268 --> 02:10:10.510

								You mean the one that Bob Gallo announced the day before or the day of, 9-11?


								02:10:10.931 --> 02:10:11.951

								Holy shit!


								02:10:13.792 --> 02:10:17.394

								What should be the role of government in supporting science?


								02:10:19.192 --> 02:10:24.336

								Well, government's the only place that there is the money to do modern science.


								02:10:25.357 --> 02:10:25.897

								Wow.


								02:10:26.337 --> 02:10:29.440

								And the government funds science.


								02:10:31.121 --> 02:10:35.164

								Except for when he started the Whitehead Institute with a private dude's money.


								02:10:35.244 --> 02:10:36.665

								What is he talking about?


								02:10:38.407 --> 02:10:39.087

								Open way.


								02:10:39.548 --> 02:10:41.549

								The Koch Institute.


								02:10:41.589 --> 02:10:42.990

								What is he talking about?


								02:10:43.671 --> 02:10:46.213

								So that the results of it are available to everybody.


								02:10:47.392 --> 02:10:48.713

								Now, there are patents.


								02:10:49.093 --> 02:10:54.518

								I think this is an argument to invest the amount of money that they've invested in the Human Genome Project.


								02:10:54.998 --> 02:10:56.439

								That's why he says it.


								02:10:58.861 --> 02:11:07.388

								Because he is an example of how private money can fund science, and successfully, but only the government can afford to do the Human Genome Project.


								02:11:07.488 --> 02:11:12.792

								Only the government could use and change the citizenry into an experimental animal.


								02:11:14.144 --> 02:11:21.447

								And the patents do restrict the availability of science, particularly for commercial development.


								02:11:21.468 --> 02:11:24.189

								But for basic development, everything's on the table.


								02:11:25.669 --> 02:11:33.713

								And so the government is doing funding of science in the public's interest in a real sense.


								02:11:36.074 --> 02:11:37.495

								And that should be their role.


								02:11:37.775 --> 02:11:43.178

								Now, there are elements of science.


								02:11:44.482 --> 02:11:54.926

								where the scientific, particularly as they relate to medicine, where the scientific community isn't necessarily excited by working on the problem.


								02:11:57.167 --> 02:12:10.113

								But the public policy implications may be so important, as in the AIDS epidemic, that the government should use whatever power it has to get people to focus on the issue.


								02:12:11.863 --> 02:12:14.465

								And just getting people to focus on it isn't enough.


								02:12:14.745 --> 02:12:17.187

								You've got to get the very best people to focus on it.


								02:12:17.647 --> 02:12:19.028

								Because they're the creative ones.


								02:12:19.068 --> 02:12:22.330

								The number of really creative scientists at any one time is very small.


								02:12:24.492 --> 02:12:26.553

								What a giant admission that is.


								02:12:26.614 --> 02:12:30.817

								The amount of creative scientists at any one time is very small.


								02:12:31.397 --> 02:12:32.117

								No shit.


								02:12:32.998 --> 02:12:39.443

								That means that controlling these ideas is very easy for a select few of creative mentors.


								02:12:41.152 --> 02:12:43.515

								Gosh dang, it's too easy.


								02:12:43.896 --> 02:12:47.280

								It's like dunking on an eight foot rim.


								02:12:57.834 --> 02:13:05.560

								the really only laboratory of its kind at NIH, a focused laboratory on AIDS vaccine development.


								02:13:06.260 --> 02:13:08.802

								It's called the Virus Research Center.


								02:13:11.203 --> 02:13:13.905

								I thought it was the Vaccine Research Center, but okay.


								02:13:14.025 --> 02:13:15.506

								It's largely focused on HIV.


								02:13:16.767 --> 02:13:22.071

								And so that aggregated some really very good people all together in the same building with the same focus.


								02:13:22.091 --> 02:13:25.954

								You see how he is an administrator for all of this?


								02:13:27.608 --> 02:13:33.930

								And it started with his acceptance of the role of the discovery of these viral enzymes.


								02:13:36.910 --> 02:13:39.351

								For the love of goodness, girls, be quiet.


								02:13:41.772 --> 02:13:46.493

								What was your experience like, or what's been your experience working in Washington?


								02:13:46.773 --> 02:13:47.733

								Is it frustrating?


								02:13:48.413 --> 02:13:49.734

								Oh, it's frustrating.


								02:13:51.334 --> 02:13:54.835

								It's frustrating because you're looking for


								02:13:56.132 --> 02:14:12.047

								very intelligent responses and you're getting responses which are political and which are often not from the very best people because the sort of bureaucratic machinery that runs the government isn't necessarily the very best people.


								02:14:13.629 --> 02:14:15.230

								They're very well-meaning people, I must say.


								02:14:15.250 --> 02:14:23.516

								I mean, I've never found people whose concern is any deeper than the people that work in government agencies on health.


								02:14:24.577 --> 02:14:29.120

								But they're not necessarily the smartest people from the point of view of making policy.


								02:14:30.871 --> 02:14:43.304

								So I ran the AIDS Vaccine Research Committee, which was a committee sort of advising the government on research focus, and all of us were frustrated on that committee.


								02:14:47.628 --> 02:14:51.912

								And the AIDS Vaccine Research Committee, I mean, really, this is awesome.


								02:14:54.418 --> 02:14:55.879

								Is that sort of But I should.


								02:14:55.899 --> 02:14:58.321

								There is an interesting MIT connection here.


								02:14:59.062 --> 02:15:00.583

								I was at some event.


								02:15:00.603 --> 02:15:02.185

								I don't remember where.


								02:15:02.805 --> 02:15:05.588

								Walter Rosenblith, who at that point was, this is now 1985.


								02:15:07.830 --> 02:15:18.739

								Walter is long out of administration at MIT, but was very involved in Washington, and particularly in the Academy of Sciences.


								02:15:20.066 --> 02:15:37.831

								And he came to me at this, it was a cocktail party or something, and said, David, you're going to get a call to ask you to co-chair a committee to consider what we should be doing about the AIDS epidemic for the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine.


								02:15:38.572 --> 02:15:40.992

								He gets a lot of really good phone calls, you know.


								02:15:41.092 --> 02:15:44.033

								I get shitty phone calls, like from Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								02:15:44.093 --> 02:15:46.734

								and Ron Johnson on the same day.


								02:15:50.073 --> 02:15:56.995

								And I'm just saying, if you can, I want you to accept and to do this.


								02:15:57.035 --> 02:15:58.255

								I think it's very important.


								02:15:59.335 --> 02:16:04.357

								And I did get a call, and I did accept, and it was very important.


								02:16:05.077 --> 02:16:14.459

								This is the Reagan administration, and Reagan was running from anything that smelled like homosexuals or AIDS or


								02:16:15.694 --> 02:16:19.595

								I mean, all those sort of Republicans got embarrassed about these things.


								02:16:21.076 --> 02:16:33.220

								And I felt we had a responsibility in the scientific community to insist that we have a serious program of research in this area.


								02:16:34.300 --> 02:16:41.603

								And I was able to put together some very good people to look at that question and to come up with that recommendation, and we did.


								02:16:44.093 --> 02:16:50.340

								a report called, geez, I used to know the name of that report very well.


								02:16:53.043 --> 02:16:56.026

								Anyway, the report to the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine.


								02:16:56.507 --> 02:17:00.892

								And we said there should be a billion-dollar research program, billion dollars was a lot of money at that point.


								02:17:02.133 --> 02:17:06.178

								And it was a sort of audacious


								02:17:08.129 --> 02:17:10.451

								recommendation, but it was accepted.


								02:17:11.612 --> 02:17:17.338

								And within about two or three years, we had a billion-dollar research program.


								02:17:19.820 --> 02:17:27.247

								So do you think of that as something, a contribution you've made for public service?


								02:17:29.500 --> 02:17:29.981

								Absolutely.


								02:17:30.041 --> 02:17:30.821

								Writing that report.


								02:17:31.402 --> 02:17:32.463

								Is that photography?


								02:17:32.623 --> 02:17:32.943

								Oh, no.


								02:17:33.083 --> 02:17:34.144

								That's a rake in the back.


								02:17:34.285 --> 02:17:37.447

								I thought that was photography on the video.


								02:17:38.528 --> 02:17:42.212

								I did that with Shelly Wolf, who was then at Tufts, no longer with us.


								02:17:43.373 --> 02:17:45.154

								And he was more on the medical side.


								02:17:45.174 --> 02:17:46.336

								I was more on the research side.


								02:17:47.757 --> 02:17:51.160

								It was as important as any report ever written at the National Academy.


								02:17:53.337 --> 02:18:01.341

								So I want to talk about Caltech and your lab, but let me ask just a couple questions, generic questions, about MIT.


								02:18:04.403 --> 02:18:09.806

								Having spent so much time here, what is it that you think makes MIT unique as an institution?


								02:18:12.223 --> 02:18:20.926

								I think the good thing is why don't we just join our laboratories and, you know, sort of work.


								02:18:22.046 --> 02:18:24.907

								Nobody had ever done that before at MIT, or at least in biology.


								02:18:24.927 --> 02:18:26.347

								I don't know about anywhere else.


								02:18:27.507 --> 02:18:36.270

								Well, collaboration is something that people talk about all the time and is now, I might say, almost an issue.


								02:18:37.318 --> 02:18:51.326

								But when I went, when I came up at MIT, we had very little collaboration, even within the department, never mind the silos of the individual departments, but even within the department.


								02:18:52.102 --> 02:18:57.447

								When I said I want to have a joint laboratory with Harvey Lodish, who was just coming.


								02:18:57.507 --> 02:18:58.528

								I knew him from before.


								02:18:58.988 --> 02:19:04.393

								He was coming, this was two years after I came, or maybe a year.


								02:19:06.875 --> 02:19:10.118

								And I said, well, why don't we just join our laboratories?


								02:19:11.059 --> 02:19:17.505

								Nobody had ever done that before at MIT, or at least in biology.


								02:19:17.565 --> 02:19:18.866

								I don't know about anywhere else.


								02:19:20.969 --> 02:19:31.956

								And that notion of sharing equipment, that your laboratory wasn't your fortress, that was new.


								02:19:32.096 --> 02:19:43.784

								And when I actually set up the Whitehead Institute and set it up to be collaborative and to have central cores of equipment rather than having his equipment and her equipment and whatever, that was new.


								02:19:45.740 --> 02:19:51.903

								and actually set a tone for the whole country of how you built these kinds of places.


								02:19:52.444 --> 02:19:57.186

								But that's pretty remarkable because core facilities, they were really David Baltimore's idea.


								02:19:57.347 --> 02:20:01.429

								I think they were more like a national security protocol.


								02:20:02.225 --> 02:20:07.348

								that was changed once the aim was sequencing things.


								02:20:07.388 --> 02:20:14.452

								So you needed to have a core facility to do a lot of these measurements because no one lab could afford to have this kind of infrastructure.


								02:20:14.492 --> 02:20:21.015

								And so that's why you needed administrators that were read in on the goals, the higher goals of the system.


								02:20:21.436 --> 02:20:30.741

								That's why you needed a guy like this to get a phone call from Joshua Lederberg so he could get a heads up on the right answer to the question and then just kind of naively say that I saw


								02:20:31.201 --> 02:20:33.842

								what was coming and I said development or something like that.


								02:20:34.342 --> 02:20:39.764

								This is all an elaborate hoax, an elaborate script with scripted actors.


								02:20:40.224 --> 02:20:45.446

								No real progress in molecular biology has been made since Max Delbruck retired.


								02:20:45.846 --> 02:20:46.546

								How about that?


								02:20:47.926 --> 02:20:50.627

								He is sort of on the forefront.


								02:20:50.807 --> 02:20:50.967

								Yes.


								02:20:51.167 --> 02:20:57.449

								Now MIT has really picked up the mantra of collaboration and is focusing on it.


								02:20:57.609 --> 02:20:59.630

								And I worry about


								02:21:00.802 --> 02:21:03.305

								I worry about it from the following point of view.


								02:21:04.767 --> 02:21:14.180

								Collaborative science tends to be complicated science that requires many different inputs.


								02:21:16.107 --> 02:21:21.749

								but isn't necessarily driven by a single imagination.


								02:21:22.109 --> 02:21:22.929

								Definitely not.


								02:21:22.969 --> 02:21:30.351

								That's why Jessica Rose, one of the babbling advisors and meddlers behind Robert F. Kennedy Jr.


								02:21:30.491 --> 02:21:45.536

								and the Health Freedom Movement in America and Canada and Israel and elsewhere, is claiming that she did five postdocs, which she calls secondary degrees, and all she did was do some math modeling in every lab that she was in.


								02:21:47.301 --> 02:22:01.210

								And so he's describing exactly the problem with modern academia that was probably starting to become exponentially exacerbated in the time that he took over and started administrating these institutions.


								02:22:01.250 --> 02:22:02.951

								He knew exactly what was happening.


								02:22:03.431 --> 02:22:14.798

								He knew exactly how this huge sums of money were being used to dilute and dilute and dilute the real investigations into real issues and diluting and


								02:22:15.919 --> 02:22:20.663

								making invisible the lack of progress in molecular biology and genetics.


								02:22:23.025 --> 02:22:28.630

								And it is the individual imagination of scientists that makes a difference in the world.


								02:22:30.211 --> 02:22:34.134

								And so I'm no fan of collaboration per se.


								02:22:35.399 --> 02:22:39.343

								Certain kinds of projects can only be done collaboratively, should be done collaboratively.


								02:22:39.363 --> 02:22:41.005

								It's a good thing for those.


								02:22:41.905 --> 02:22:48.132

								But if we lost the focus on individuals, we would lose the core of innovative science.


								02:22:48.993 --> 02:22:51.195

								But we have already lost that, a long time ago.


								02:22:51.835 --> 02:22:53.176

								Already at this time, I think.


								02:22:53.737 --> 02:22:54.938

								He's not saying anything profound.


								02:22:54.958 --> 02:22:56.519

								INTERVIEWER 2 That's an important thing to say.


								02:22:56.659 --> 02:22:59.662

								Look, he thinks he's said something very profound, but he really hasn't.


								02:22:59.782 --> 02:23:04.005

								Is there anything else you want to say about MIT that you think is important, too?


								02:23:04.906 --> 02:23:07.308

								I could talk about MIT forever, but no, I needn't.


								02:23:07.869 --> 02:23:07.989

								OK.


								02:23:11.331 --> 02:23:14.833

								Let's look at Caltech.


								02:23:15.113 --> 02:23:22.377

								Talk to me a little bit about the appeal of going there and how you felt about being president and your accomplishments there.


								02:23:23.037 --> 02:23:25.518

								Let me say one other thing before that.


								02:23:26.919 --> 02:23:28.580

								Because I came back to MIT again.


								02:23:29.700 --> 02:23:30.961

								I went to Rockefeller.


								02:23:31.992 --> 02:23:38.178

								And then the Imanishi-Kari incident exploded in my face in a way.


								02:23:39.359 --> 02:23:42.963

								And I couldn't continue on as president there.


								02:23:43.483 --> 02:23:50.090

								I stayed on for a while as professor because I had a laboratory with some momentum.


								02:23:50.110 --> 02:23:52.372

								And my wife had a good job in New York.


								02:23:53.713 --> 02:23:55.555

								But I was offered, actually,


								02:23:56.716 --> 02:24:03.684

								Right when everything, when the day I announced that I was stepping down, I got a call from the president of MIT saying, you want to come back?


								02:24:04.825 --> 02:24:05.586

								Do you want to come back?


								02:24:06.486 --> 02:24:09.029

								And I said, give me a minute to think.


								02:24:10.070 --> 02:24:12.052

								But I finally decided that is what I wanted to do.


								02:24:13.351 --> 02:24:16.314

								And so I came back here in 94, 95.


								02:24:19.937 --> 02:24:23.780

								And I figured that was going to be the rest of my career here.


								02:24:23.900 --> 02:24:24.741

								It was going to be here.


								02:24:25.301 --> 02:24:27.363

								I wasn't going to do anything else.


								02:24:29.445 --> 02:24:35.250

								I didn't even think anybody would ever ask me to do anything else, because it had been such a sort of acrimonious situation.


								02:24:36.696 --> 02:24:43.359

								I made a couple of mistakes as president of Rockefeller, which I won't talk about, but I could sometimes.


								02:24:46.880 --> 02:24:52.682

								And so here I was, and I had now laboratories in Building, what was it, 68.


								02:24:54.563 --> 02:25:03.406

								And I got a call from Caltech saying, would I talk to the search committee for the presidency?


								02:25:05.350 --> 02:25:06.612

								And I said, sure, I'd talk.


								02:25:06.692 --> 02:25:10.456

								And I figured they wanted my sage advice about institutions.


								02:25:10.536 --> 02:25:16.964

								And there weren't that many people who had as much experience as I did in developing institutions at the time.


								02:25:19.147 --> 02:25:23.072

								And they made it plain that they wanted to consider me for the presidency.


								02:25:24.273 --> 02:25:24.874

								And I said,


								02:25:26.946 --> 02:25:32.670

								You've got to know what you're getting into here and be absolutely certain that you're comfortable with it.


								02:25:32.870 --> 02:25:41.715

								Now, the guy who had written the book about me called The Baltimore Case was a faculty member at Caltech, Dan Kevles.


								02:25:42.155 --> 02:25:43.396

								He later left and went to Yale.


								02:25:45.772 --> 02:25:55.097

								And he was the chairman of the faculty, actually, at the time, the man who had appointed the committee that then sought the presidency, sought the president.


								02:25:57.158 --> 02:26:07.943

								So he had certainly vouched for me and knew as much about the incident as anybody in the world and could answer almost any question.


								02:26:08.003 --> 02:26:10.044

								It's a lot about the incident, isn't it?


								02:26:10.104 --> 02:26:11.665

								It's a lot about the incident.


								02:26:11.805 --> 02:26:12.525

								It's amazing.


								02:26:13.905 --> 02:26:17.507

								And it has nothing to do with the science and whether the science was proven or not.


								02:26:17.587 --> 02:26:18.688

								It's just the incident.


								02:26:19.609 --> 02:26:20.029

								Wow.


								02:26:21.310 --> 02:26:27.414

								But the man who ran the search, Kip Thorne, was a theoretical physicist.


								02:26:28.415 --> 02:26:32.217

								Caltech, as opposed to any other institution, has the faculty run the search for the new president.


								02:26:33.778 --> 02:26:36.220

								Although the board ultimately makes the decision.


								02:26:38.260 --> 02:26:47.928

								Kip talked to, and I know this, to every single person who had anything to do with me at any point in my life, if they were still alive.


								02:26:49.830 --> 02:26:56.776

								And he finally convinced himself that they were safe offering me the presidency.


								02:26:57.779 --> 02:27:01.803

								By that time, the emancipatory incident had resolved completely.


								02:27:02.323 --> 02:27:09.870

								She had been entirely exonerated, and by implication, I had been exonerated for what I had done.


								02:27:15.891 --> 02:27:20.414

								And so they finally said, you are our favorite candidate.


								02:27:20.455 --> 02:27:22.156

								They made the recommendation to the board.


								02:27:22.176 --> 02:27:25.118

								The board came to me and said, you are our chosen candidate.


								02:27:25.398 --> 02:27:26.179

								Do you want the job?


								02:27:27.520 --> 02:27:29.181

								Then I had to take the idea seriously.


								02:27:29.762 --> 02:27:30.882

								And that was really tough.


								02:27:31.363 --> 02:27:38.748

								Because I, as I said, had more or less made up my mind that I wasn't going to take on any more administrative activities.


								02:27:38.788 --> 02:27:40.630

								I had a lot of science I wanted to do.


								02:27:40.650 --> 02:27:42.131

								I was not unhappy about that.


								02:27:47.124 --> 02:27:48.706

								I got excited by the idea.


								02:27:49.926 --> 02:27:53.950

								Really what got me excited was that Caltech is a unique institution.


								02:27:55.371 --> 02:28:08.140

								It has 900 undergraduates, 1,200 graduate students, 300 faculty, and it hasn't changed those numbers, except for a little creep in the graduate student side, in 30 years.


								02:28:10.672 --> 02:28:18.580

								Ladies and gentlemen, there's a reason why he hasn't said anything in more than two hours of listening to him that has anything to do with fundamental biology.


								02:28:19.340 --> 02:28:29.630

								That's because social media is a national security theater that is populated by national security actors that have been working behind the scenes in academia for decades already.


								02:28:32.182 --> 02:28:42.129

								They have been curating a narrative about viruses and about the enzymes that they have that violate the central dogma, and this is all an illusion.


								02:28:43.510 --> 02:28:55.658

								But they are all actors that trust the script because they understand the long-term vision of what's being done here, which includes the slow undermining of our understanding of who we are and what sovereignty means.


								02:28:56.946 --> 02:29:04.030

								and the slow undermining of our sort of collective planning abilities with our children.


								02:29:04.750 --> 02:29:06.231

								That's what social media is doing.


								02:29:06.291 --> 02:29:08.512

								It's taking us off the same page with our kids.


								02:29:09.052 --> 02:29:10.993

								It's starting to separate us from our kids.


								02:29:11.433 --> 02:29:24.260

								And if we don't realize that that's the fundamental danger to the family and to the contiguous sort of sustaining of the human population on earth, these people are well aware of that.


								02:29:25.196 --> 02:29:38.626

								and that they are willing and able to lie to us in order to govern us because they think the vast majority of us are too dumb to understand the responsibility that we have to future generations, where it's exactly the opposite.


								02:29:39.407 --> 02:29:47.994

								Gingholm Biological understands exactly our obligations to future generations, what we already owe them for what we are borrowing from them.


								02:29:49.005 --> 02:30:03.877

								The Human Genome Project is an abomination that may have made sense on paper 40 years ago, but now that we can see the irreducibly complex problem better than ever, the Human Genome Project is an abomination.


								02:30:03.957 --> 02:30:08.100

								Ladies and gentlemen, the entire pandemic is based on pseudobiology.


								02:30:08.161 --> 02:30:09.281

								It's fake biology.


								02:30:09.321 --> 02:30:10.242

								It's bullshittery.


								02:30:11.343 --> 02:30:15.746

								do not take it seriously except as a subject that can be studied.


								02:30:16.106 --> 02:30:21.249

								And we will study it here as the History of Pseudobiology 432, a course.


								02:30:21.990 --> 02:30:26.493

								Racism and COVID are now endemic to America and most of the West.


								02:30:27.373 --> 02:30:35.739

								This is the kind of thing that makes sense to say on social media and maybe even makes sense to say on Meet the Press, but actually it's absolute bullshit.


								02:30:35.819 --> 02:30:43.744

								And if you knew the real biology, you would understand why immunology, like endemicity is a myth, both of the process and an endpoint.


								02:30:43.764 --> 02:30:49.108

								There's a background that they misconstrued as spread placebo made transfection safe.


								02:30:49.548 --> 02:30:55.372

								And we have been fooling ourselves into thinking that we are ghostbusters by using their own tests against us.


								02:30:56.032 --> 02:30:56.673

								This is


								02:30:57.573 --> 02:31:00.915

								Ladies and gentlemen, this is for all the grandchildren of Earth.


								02:31:01.335 --> 02:31:04.677

								That's why the Baltimore scheme exists as Virology 101.


								02:31:06.077 --> 02:31:10.779

								And they are very vulnerable right now because they don't have a David Baltimore anymore.


								02:31:11.480 --> 02:31:18.203

								They only have that guy from Harvard and Vincent Racaniello and a bunch of other people who are not ready to


								02:31:18.843 --> 02:31:20.284

								to defend this narrative.


								02:31:20.704 --> 02:31:22.546

								Ladies and gentlemen, now is the time.


								02:31:23.106 --> 02:31:24.828

								We can teach our kids this problem.


								02:31:25.228 --> 02:31:35.656

								We can teach our kids these ideas, and we can move forward with another sacred biology, a real biology 101.


								02:31:36.717 --> 02:31:42.281

								Don't forget, you and your children are trapped in a national security theater if you're using social media willy-nilly.


								02:31:42.801 --> 02:31:44.223

								So get out while you can.


								02:31:44.283 --> 02:31:45.343

								Thank you very much for being here.


								02:31:45.403 --> 02:31:46.164

								See you again soon.


								02:31:48.906 --> 02:31:49.546

								Oh yeah, that's right.


								02:31:49.666 --> 02:31:51.707

								Don't believe the red hat nonsense.


								02:31:51.767 --> 02:31:53.468

								Don't believe the blue hat nonsense.


								02:31:54.209 --> 02:31:58.911

								Just remember where we are at giga ohm biological intramuscular injections.


								02:31:58.951 --> 02:32:00.672

								A dumb idea from the late 1800s.


								02:32:00.732 --> 02:32:03.213

								Transfection of healthy humans was a crime.


								02:32:03.773 --> 02:32:07.055

								RNA cannot pandemic and autism is a meaningless word by design.


								02:32:07.095 --> 02:32:07.835

								Thanks for being here.


								02:32:07.855 --> 02:32:08.635

								See you again tomorrow.


								02:32:12.244 --> 02:32:15.692

								Could have been music there, but I guess it's the next slide that's going to give me music.


								02:32:15.732 --> 02:32:17.295

								Don't forget to download PeerTube.


								02:32:17.315 --> 02:32:19.079

								If you need any help, let me know.


								02:32:44.534 --> 02:32:44.614

								So,


								02:33:22.393 --> 02:33:28.435

								I have no responsibility for the current pandemic.


								02:33:28.695 --> 02:33:29.956

								Stop lying!